Optical glass?

UKworkshop.co.uk

Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Jacob

What goes around comes around.
Joined
7 Jul 2010
Messages
31,139
Reaction score
6,517
Location
Derbyshire
Have perfect vantage point for bird photography through a high window but the glass is very old and wrinkly. Can't open the window or they all fly away. Could replace with modern float glass.
Occurred to me that there might be something even better than normal float glass, for photography purposes.
Any ideas?
 
A modern piece of float glass will be about as optically perfect as you are going to be able to afford for a window. A bigger problem will be reflections between the lens and the window.
Any other options for making the window openable but discrete?
 
Rorschach":2p8nw42b said:
A modern piece of float glass will be about as optically perfect as you are going to be able to afford for a window. A bigger problem will be reflections between the lens and the window.
OK. Polarising filter?
Any other options for making the window openable but discrete?
Could be left open summer only but it's more of a winter phenomenon - opposite the top of a large hawthorn where flocks of goldfinches and others gather, fieldfares and all sorts. Amazingly a heron perched briefly - could have been my best photo ever!
 
using a polarising filter will remove the reflections, but you can only use them on DSLRs and better cameras, what camera are you using?
 
thetyreman":1z8rcc2z said:
using a polarising filter will remove the reflections, but you can only use them on DSLRs and better cameras, what camera are you using?
No prob. Canon 450d
 
We need pictures Jacob !

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 
ColeyS1":17bn0yd4 said:
We need pictures Jacob !

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
Here you go then, cr@p distorted photo of Fieldfares! Could be anything. Parrots?
I blame the glass.

IMG_2239.JPG
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2239.JPG
    IMG_2239.JPG
    4.5 MB
+1 for float glass. It's about as good as it gets unless you are doing extreme applications (e.g. space telescopes). Ideally you would get it with a thin film multilayer antireflection coating from a specialist optical supplier. I would avoid the method of micro/nanotextured antireflection surface as this might cause some unsharpness.

Be cautious about using polarising filters. If the glass is at all strained, for example at the edges due to the mounting, or all across from not being mounted flat, it will go birefringent in stressed areas and this will give "fringes" (areas of grey bands) in polarised filters under some conditions (when there is any polarisation in the illuminating light, such as from reflections). They may work or may not, that's helpful, I know.

Keith
 
Do you have a manual focus facility on your camera, Jacob? It's possible that your auto-focus is focussing on the glass and not the subject. Manual focussing will sort that out for you.
 
Manual. It's the glass.
Possibly the glass imperfections being so close to the camera will magnify camera shake and make it even worse.
 
looks like the glass distorting it, do you have a tripod and self timer? if so try it instead of hand held, does the lens you are using have optical stabilisation built into it?
 
thetyreman":2f2y0su4 said:
looks like the glass distorting it, do you have a tripod and self timer? if so try it instead of hand held, does the lens you are using have optical stabilisation built into it?
Yes to all that.
Gotta be the glass!
Thanks for suggestions.
 
I would think any problem would probably be caused by light reflecting between the glass and the lens rather than any irregularity in the glass itself - have you tried using some sort of shroud?
 
Looks like a shallow depth of field and its focused in front of the birds some branches are in focus, the glass will be giving two reflections blurring the pictures if you are shooting at an angle.

Can you adjust the focus on your lens/camera? Mine has AF fine tune settings so I can adjust different lenses AF to be more accurate.

It looks like the 450 doesn't have Af adjust, you will have to use live view and contrast focus which will be accurate.

Pete

Pete
 
Out of curiosity, what lens are you using?

You probably have two or three distinct issues with photography through a window. Several have been mentioned, but to summarise:

1. The glass: optical flatness (or as close as poss) will help, but it's not the biggest issue by far. I asked about your lens: assuming it's being used wide open (or close to that), the larger the aperture, the larger the front element, and the less that any one part of the glass (and the lens) contributes to the final image. So you can get images "through" solid objects such as chain link fencing or twiggy bits on trees, if the point of focus is way away from the obstruction. Obviously this doesn't work with twigs your target bird is perching on, as those'll be in focus, but wildlife photography is possible through netting, etc. This works with glass too, but only to an extent.

You want flatness, but also thinness in the glass, to keep the light transmission as high as possible, it also helps to cut down the obviousness of multiple reflections (see below). You also want the lens as close as possible to the glass, so an individual blemish only affects a proportion of the light from object to sensor, not all of it.

2. Reflections: You get these from bloomin' everything and they are probably the worst issue photographing indoors-to-outdoors. The lens, the camera, and anything behind those will be reflected in the glass. If they net-out to be the same distance away as your intended point of focus, you'll get a sharp image of them too. For example, if your bird table is eight feet from the house, the focal distance is probably about nine or ten feet: anything at that point in the room, if bright enough, will also be thrown into sharp focus. In Victorian theatre, it was how they did "Pepper's Ghost", but that's no help here!

And, of course you probably also get two reflections, one each from the front and back surfaces of the glass (the nearest surface is the brightest by far). If it's double-glazed, there will be four. If looking into the sun, or towards any other bright point of light, you also have internal reflections of the lens itself to consider. For that reason I take off the protective "UV" filter that lives on the front of the lens, as it's two fewer air-glass boundaries to worry about.

How do you mitigate these? The only practical (impractical?) way is to stop the reflections happening. So fix up some black cloth around the lens (so you can still move it about), that goes up to the frame of the pane you're using and is fixed round it. Get the front of the lens as close to the glass as possible,and make sure both inside and out are as spotless as possible. Tape-up any shiny bits of lens and camera. You might also contrive something like a cap peak sticking out from that pane, to stop light falling just inside (onto the camera gear). You see this idea used on surveillance cameras of different types, and it also has the advantage of keeping rain off.

It's worth mentioning here, too, that out-of-focus reflections look like lens flare or muck on the window - they will degrade the image, mainly making it low-contrast, and unless you do some experiments you may be puzzled as to why!

Finally, aperture: I mentioned this in passing. You can't beat a good, fast, prime lens in this context. It doesn't need to be Canon and it doesn't need to be posh, either. For years I used a truly ancient Tamron 400mm drainpipe with a three-element lens (the-back end was a doublet). Canon have the widest lens mount in the business*, which leaves room for adaptors to other brands of lens. Watch out for stuff sticking out from the back of the lens into the mirror box though. I've already dinged the mirror mount on my 6D by forgetting to remove the stop-down lever from a Pentax lens! But on an APS sensor there is usually sufficient clearance for most lenses - there's a table on the Net somewhere that I found, to save you causing damage by experimentation.

With a brand-converting mount adaptor you lose infinity focus, and obviously the lens system becomes fully manual, but that shouldn't be an issue in this context. The longer the focal length, the less the infinity-focus thing matters. It's hardly noticeable on my 400mm lenses, and if you add on doublers, etc., the issue goes away for all practical purposes.

You do, however make the mount mechanically looser, so supporting the lens-camera at both ends is sensible. I have a long-lens support, that has a 1/4" tripod thread at one end for the camera and an adjustable-height "Y" at the other for the front of the lens. There's a row of 1/4" threaded holes at the rough centre of gravity of the system. It works very well, but it's heavy and prone to losing bits when you travel with it, but I can't complain: it was made by the mechanical engineering workshop that used to build bespoke camera hardware for the BBC Nat. Hist. Unit :). It's aluminium and heavy - any nice hardwood would work just as well...

So, if you have specific target spots to aim at, the above will be helpful. If you want to hand-hold and just point+shoot, you may continue to be disappointed.

Hope that helps. I'm only a novice at all this though, and I've seen some really nice wildlife stuff on this forum in the past - more knowledgeable people will be along soon, I'm sure.

Here are three of mine from a day out with the kids (and grandkid!) last November: https://photos.app.goo.gl/UjmD3UiAEcMf1CZTA
Note the issue with the Osprey pics - even with a reasonably fast lens (300mm @ f/4), you can't separate the bird from the background very well (it was across a lake around 200ft away). The perched shot is OK, but the just-taken-off one is too cluttered, IMHO. A longer lens and/or a wider aperture would help, but both would make handheld operation impossible. I used a monopod for the Osprey, but the Egret is handheld and a lot closer**. It looks decent mostly because the background is lake water in shadow, so doesn't distract the eye - happenstance, not skill!

Have fun, E.

PS: The mouse in my avatar was taken about eight feet from the dining room window (closed), near dusk. It's got many of the issues discussed above ;-)

*dunno about the new "mirrorless" mount - changing the mount is a sales lock-in gimmic, IMHO.
**It wasn't at all bothered by park visitors - it had seen a frog, I think!
 
Rightho thanks for that! Lots to look at.
I've tried a few variations and yes, further away and smaller aperture the worse the glass effect - you start seeing it needs cleaning!
I wondered about mounting a card over the window with just a hole for the lens.
Sunny days help too.
 
Card+ hole is a good quick idea ( black on both sides).
If you get really keen, Google for "Rosco CineFoil" (matte black coated thick aluminium foil). It's what pro lighting and camera people use and it is really, really good. It's also a bit pricey, but I've had a roll that's lasted years, as you can realistically re-use it many times if you're careful.
 
Tried again with different lens large aperture 1:1.8 fully open and near to glass.
Birds have all effed off (too much action going on)
Sun came out - better twigs but worse reflections so a card with hole next, and to clean the glass
 
Larger aperture should help a lot though. f/1.8 sounds like a 50mm lens (I did ask what lens you're using...). That's a bit wide (short focal length) for what you want to do. I'd use a 135mm at a minimum, but the longer the better within reason. Touching the window glass with the lens barrel does no harm, and for me helps with camera shake (no glass-to-glass contact, mind!).
 
Back
Top