Old vs new woodwork machinery. What's your opinion?

[Phil1975]

I am starting to think about buying some decent machinery as I get more into my woodworking & begin to realise what I need to progress. At present I'm thinking about a table/cabinet saw & a decent planer thicknesser. I should also say at this point that I am very much an amateur, but my Military service will end in 2 years & this is the career I hope to follow when I leave so I am looking to buy suitable equipment to use in a small workshop for (hopefully) years to come.

My preference would be to go for for older machinery, which seems to be built to last. However I'm not entirely sure if buying older would be better? What I don't want to do is buy a clapped out old machine & then wish I had bought something modern, but then I also don't want to buy something newer & be frustrated that it's flimsier & not as pleasant to use as a chunk of old British cast iron.

The experiences of people who have had both would be very much appreciated in terms of reliability, usability, parts availability & any other useful infomation gained from previous experience. If you were me, what would you do (with the benefit of hindsight)?

If this has been done to death then I apologise, but I did a search & couldn't see anything obvious.

 

[RogerP]

As you have time on your side to get the equipment I'd recommend you look for older British machinery BUT be ready to reject much you might see as it was my experience that often there was a good reason for the sale. Lots I looked at would have needed major restoration, repair and replacement of missing parts. Also remember they're cast iron, large and heavy, so you'll need help, a suitable vehicle and a crane plus being prepared to drive all over the country.

Good luck!

 

[mikefab]

If you have the time, inclination and skills to search for and set up old machines then I'd recommend going that route. But even new machines need setting up in my experience (planer tables aligning etc).

I bought what I hoped would be a quality new P/T last year as I thought I would be saving time. I still needed to spend quite a bit of time getting the tables aligned properly and had 2 motor failures under pretty light use in a few months. I returned it to the retailer for a full refund and with the 1.5k budget I then had bought a big old Sedgwick PT and a Wadkin AGS saw. Yes they have both needed a bit of setting up but I had the time to do it and am delighted with them both. When I look at new machines it appears that I would have to spend about 3k per machine to get the same build quality. The finish I get on the Sedgwick on sapele is far superior (no tear-out) to the Jet with new knives in each and similar depth of cut. I can only assume this is due to the mass of the machine and the the far heftier cutter block.

As has already been pointed out, you need to be choosy with your machines. I struck gold pretty quickly but my strategy was to check for problems which would be expensive to fix. So that meant a straight edge across the tables to see if they were flat (but not worrying about alignment etc), and a check to see that there was no undue play in bearings/spindles and that everything moved properly. Worth listening to them run too.

Clearly this is only one anecdotal experience and probably I was unlucky with my machine and replacement motor, and I have to say I was well looked after by Axminster who refunded it without a quibble.

Hope this helps.

 

[mikefab]

I would also add that there may be health and safety considerations with old machines if you are planning on using them in a commercial setting. Like stopping times and guarding etc. I've recently spent quite a bit on an overhead guard for the Wadkin AGS and it is great! I should put some pictures up....

 

[deema]

Depending on what sort of work you plan doing will I feel determine what is best to buy. If you plan to work on your own you can buy secondhand machines that don't need to meet H&S regulations. For a workshop to pay IMO you need to specialise in an area such as bespoke Kitches, fitted bedroom furniture, customer made windows, doors or stair cases probably out of hardwood. The latter are easier to do on your own, anything big like cabinets is quicker and far easier with an apprentice.

For new if money is no object, SCM would be my choice, must would recommend Felder and Hammer, and I bought mainly Sedgwick.

Secondhand is a great way of buying top quality machines at a fraction of the new price. Wadkin are just about bullet proof and hold their value. For me, I bought mainly Sedgwick secondhand (light blue on blue or white and blue as these are the newer machines and the ones I bought meet H&S regs.

I would not personally buy anything that doesnt need a fork lift to move, well slight exaggeration, what I'm trying to say buy the biggest and heaviest machines you can. Weight for be equals accuracy and low vibration and hence I believe a better finish.

Most old machines can be made to comply with H&S regs, but often the cost is the same as buying a newer secondhand machine that does comply.

 

[MusicMan]

I would also add that there may be health and safety considerations with old machines if you are planning on using them in a commercial setting. Like stopping times and guarding etc. I've recently spent quite a bit on an overhead guard for the Wadkin AGS and it is great! I should put some pictures up....

Pics and details please! I also have a Wadkin AGS 10, 1960s, and I am delighted with it. I'd love an overhead guard to replace the one mounted on the splitter.

To the OP, yes, check for flatness and bearing fit if you can. Mine needed very little work and cuts very accurately, greatly expanding the range of things I can make and wood I can use.

But my principle of risk on eBay etc is that if it is a popular item, I can often resell it on eBay for a similar price if it turns out to be not quite what I wanted.

Dust collection is another issue on older machines, but is usually solvable, often by asking on here what others have done.

There is experience of most machines here, so it would be worth asking e.g. on the maintainability and spares availability of particular machines. On the whole however, the man things to replace (if not actually cracked/broken) are cutting edges (blades, knives) and bearings/belts, all relatively easy.

Keith

 

[mikefab]

Pics and details please! I also have a Wadkin AGS 10, 1960s, and I am delighted with it. I'd love an overhead guard to replace the one mounted on the splitter.

Keith

viewtopic.php?p=1039774#p1039774

 

[RobinBHM]

The classical woodworking machines, like table saws, surface planers, thicknessers, spindle moulders, morticers are mostly quitle simple machines with not that many moving parts.

That means a machine of 20 or 30 years old can be capable of presicion work for many years to come. A lot of the value inherent in the machine is the quality of the cast tables, fences and slideways that just dont wear out.

The Rolls Royce of woodworking machines is Wadkin. I have a surface planer, spindle and morticer made by them. The machines were bought 16 years ago and are used daily in a busy joinery shop. The only thing needed on these machines in that period is replacement drive belts.

If buying second hand stick with the better known brands, wadkin, scm, sedgwick, multico, startrite for example.

I would avoid cast iron monsters of rare brands like danckaert etc. Avoid anything with squarr blocks

Modern machinery will have more safety features, better guarding, better extraction, braking, safety interlocks. Electrics will be more sophisticated and there are likely to be digital readouts on some machines. However dont let this put you off. New machines often look pretty, but unless you pay big bucks you will find the fancy trims and handles dont last.

 

[dzj]

Having 3 phase electricity will open up a lot of opportunities when buying used machines.

 

[Phil1975]

Thank you everybody for taking the time to reply.
Clearly older machinery is the way to go as these machines do seem to hold up well & work as well if not better than some of the newer stuff.
I am more than happy to take the time to look for decent examples & then spend time setting them up - which seems to be a requirement for new or old alike.
There is also a few other things mentioned that I hadn't really considered & really need to think about.
A great start, the field has narrowed somewhat!

 

[mikefab]

Don't forget that 3 phase converters are available if you don't have a 3 phase supply.

 

[Fitzroy]

I've admittedly got limited experience, but my experience on planer thicknesser may interest you. I spent £250 on a 2nd hand dw1150, a 10ish year old machine with alloy tables, a modern machine by most standards and c. £1k today. It was great for small stuff up to 1.5m long and 50mm cross section. But then I found some cheap oak beams 125mm x 75mm x 1.8m, and whilst I managed to dress them I had to fashion infeed and outfeed table extensions and it was a real pain. I have recently bought a three phase wadkin 9bft surface planer, again for £250. I'm fairly practical but only self taught skills and with a pretty rough and ready toolkit and I managed to strip it down, fit new cutter block bearings (£15), wire in a phase inverter (£90 eBay) to use the three phase machine on 240v electrics, sharpen the blades and rebuild it. It's not a super massive machine but it is light years better than the dewalt.

My main point is that I would never have been confident diving straight into the Wadkin, and don't regret the DW purchase as it taught me loads about P/T. I have a similar cheap old 2nd hand table saw and bandsaw, I've learnt loads using/abusing them and now feel reasonably preparded and educated about what to buy next.

Goodluck and have fun on your woodworking journey. Fitz

 

[heimlaga]

I have a little bit of experience with old machinery:
My drill press was likely manufactured in the 1970-ies. Partially rebuilt.
My combination machine (planer/thicknesser/spindle moulder/table saw) was manufactured in 1957. Totally rebuilt.
My hollow chisel mortiser was manufactured in the later half of the 1940-ies. Totally rebuilt.
My band saw was most likely manufactured in the 1910-s. Totally rebuilt.
My rip saw was manufactured in 1885. I am currently giving it a total rebuild and upgrade to 21st century standards.
My large spindle moulder which is still awaiting a rebuild was manufactured in the 1930-ies or 1940-ies I think.
All of them are full size industrial machines.

If you don't stumble on top quailty machines super cheap and have some spare time left over I suggest that you should avoid all types of white metal (babbitt) bearings. Ball bearings had their great breakthrough in the 1910-s and 20-ies and they are a lot easier to replace and maintain. I could not resist the super cheap rip saw but casting and scraping new bearings proved to be rather labourious. The old bearings had lasted since 1885 so the new ones are likely to last my lifetime though so probably the investment will pay itself back....... but the saw had to be essentially free to make the job worthwhile.

Some parts were available for the drill press and the combination machine. Though at very higt prizes. Having parts made by a local machinist isn't that bad provided that the part is possible to make. I have made lots of parts myself and had quite a few made. What one man can make another man can repair.
Making wooden patterns and sending them off to have new parts cast is both rather labourious and rather expensive. I have always chosen machines where no new parts have to be cast. Some cast iron parts can be substituted with mild steel fabrications.
Scraping and filing are two old time skills that once learned can sort out lots of trouble. Worn out parts can sometimes be scraped to become as good as new.
Old machines often lack proper guards. I have designed and made guards to bring them up to modern standards. That involves a lot of cutting and welding.
Lots of old machines wre built to be powered through flat belts from a line shaft. Lots of people have motorized such machines while having no clue what they were doing. Starting from scratch isn't that difficult but it involves quite a bit of thinking and planning and fabrication.
Knowing the chaps at the local scrap yards is a great adwantage when rebuilding an old machine. Those places are gold mines of good raw materials.

So....now you know what is involved in a machine rebuild.

As a general rule you end up spending the same for a top quality machine in top condition whether new or old. The difference being that when you buy new you must pay it all in cash while you pay most of it with time when you buy old machines.
As your own time is free from VAT and income tax and commuting costs you get a decent leverage on your invested time when rebuilding an old machine for yourself provided that you can do it during slow spells or sparetime when you have no paid work to do. That leverage is what makes rebuilds worthwhile.

An old machine costing 400 pounds plus 1000 in rebuild costs may be equal in quality and capacity to a new one costing 6000 pounds. Industrial machines both new and old are completely different animals and cannot be compared to machines intended for the hobby market.
However there are quite a few outdated designs that just cannot be upgraded with good result. Research and a wise choice of secondhand machine are the keys to a sucsessful rebuild or repair. Be prepared that every third machine on the secondhand market is either outdated beyond upgrade or damaged beyond repair and every third is overprized in relation to the amount of repairs it needs.

There are lots of machines on the market. New and old and everything in between. Lots of rather recent secondhand machines need only minor fixes and old ones needing full rebuilds.
You need to find a ballance between time and money spent that fits your economy and your situation in life. Decide how much of the leverage involved with old machines you can exploit without running out of time or ending up with an useless obsolete workshop. You need to analyze every single machine to really find out which features you needd and which features you don't need and choose your machines according to that analysis with quality in mind.
Most likely you will end up with a mixture of machines of various ages. Some new or almost new and some older and maybe one or two very old.

The marketing people always try to tell you the opposite but there is no and will never be any machine size or type that fits everybody in the world of woodworking.
Good luck!

 

[adidat]

thats a good post!

im just starting off in the vintage machinery quest,

i have

a wadkin pk saw 1955
wadkin 9" planer 1950??
small wadkin lathe 1970??
elliot minor pillar drill 1950?
ajax power hacksaw 1980?
myford super 7 1985
bridgeport j head milling machine 1970?
bristol compressor 1960?? (apparently used to power a pleasure ride at butlins minehead)

just need a bandsaw, thicknesser and dust extractor and then off i go, oh almost forgot need to build a large workshop! got the plans and space, just saving up!

Adidat

 

[Jamie Copeland]

When I took up woodturning in 2014 my girlfriend's father (engineer and metal work fanatic) gave me lots of helpful advice when it came to buying my first lathe. He swears by sold old British engineered machinery and having bought a Union Graduate lathe I can see why. Compared to new machines built in the far east old British ones are just so much better. They're built to last and out of better quality materials, simple to operate and you can find spare parts much easier than for new machines.

I'm a convert and now can't see any reason why I would go past a solid old British engineered machine!