Old Saws

[Harbo]

Rummaging through my father's/grandfather's old tools again I came across a couple of saws including a Frederick Willey (Leeds) brass backed 12" tenon saw and an 8" dovetail saw (cannot make out the markings yet?).
Both needing de-rusting and a good clean.
I have read the stuff about cleaning old saws but how do you undo the split brass nuts holding the handle - will I have to create a special screwdriver?

I have searched for info about Frederick Willey but cannot find out anything about them - has anybody got any info on them? The plane seems well made with a nice shaped handle - will post some pictures tomorrow.

Rod

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Yep, either make from a piece of flat stock or cut down a grot turnscrew.

Or give Mr Nielsen change for a pot of tea (http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Lie-Nielsen-Tool-Specific-Screwdrivers-460429.htm
Course, no guarantee that this one will fit your saw nuts (no, I'm not going to go there...)

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Yep, either make from a piece of flat stock or cut down a grot turnscrew.

Or give Mr Nielsen change for a pot of tea (http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Lie-Nielsen-Tool-Specific-Screwdrivers-460429.htm
Course, no guarantee that this one will fit your saw nuts (no, I'm not going to go there...)

Steve

Rather hilarious those Lee n thingy screwdrivers and only £161.50 the set :shock:.
Next it'll be a separate screwdriver for each and every possible size of screw,
then, toolie heaven: every single screw with it's own screwdriver :lol:
then, a screwdriver storage facility / filing system with leather pouches, brass knobs etc

cheers
Jacob

 

[bugbear]

Rummaging through my father's/grandfather's old tools again I came across a couple of saws including a Frederick Willey (Leeds) brass backed 12" tenon saw and an 8" dovetail saw (cannot make out the markings yet?).
Both needing de-rusting and a good clean.
I have read the stuff about cleaning old saws but how do you undo the split brass nuts holding the handle - will I have to create a special screwdriver?

I have searched for info about Frederick Willey but cannot find out anything about them - has anybody got any info on them? The plane seems well made with a nice shaped handle - will post some pictures tomorrow.

Rod

I would recommend being VERY cautious about removing the screws from old saws. Some of the recessed split nuts were ground in situ after installation, and are borderline impossible to extract in good condition (pulling them back through the steel saw plate tends to muss up the brass threads).

If you really need to extract them, you might well need to create a screwdriver. The slots tend to be extremely thin (e.g. 10 thou x 1/2 "), and have a gap in the middle.

Just take an old, big screwdriver, and start grinding.

But, repeat, only remove (really) old screws if you must.

I would recommend attempting to clean the blades without removing the handle if you can.

BugBear

 

[Alf]

But, repeat, only remove (really) old screws if you must.

Quoted for emphasis. It's worth remembering that all the saw cleaning advice (iirc) is based around saws with much later and less fragile designs of saw nut.

As far As Frederick Willey goes, Hand-Saw Makers of Britain has got its info from British Planemakers and elected to follow the path of extreme caution and list the only documented date when the firm was listed as a saw manufacturer - 1894. 7, Corn Exchange, Leeds. However, BPMs has overall dates of 1876 to 1929, including specifics from the directories of: 1878, ironmonger and toolmaker; 1878, toolmaker; 1894, saw, tool and cutlery manufacturer; and 1901, tool dealer. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hop in the time machine and go back to find there were Frederick Willey marked saws available during the better part of the firm's whole history.

Cheers, Alf

 

[engineer one]

tsk, tsk, jacob, you know that there have always been specific screwdrivers for specific screws. whether it is the various phillips or torx etc sizes, or the original cabinet makers drivers some of which i have.

with slotted screws, the design is to have a screwdriver blade which is flattened at the end and is both the width and thickness of the slot.
whilst the ln ones are expensive, they work well for planes, i agree that the slotted one is only suitable for the ln saws yet :?

we have all in the past both ruined screws because of using the wrong width driver, or complained about not being able to remove them because of the stuffed up slot. in addition, modern machine made screwdrivers have a tapered blade whilst the screws have straight slots. hence the modern driver tends to torque itself out of the slots and causes breakage.

in addition, you cannot tighten the screws properly. the ln ones are made to have a flat tip, and are what used to be called gun makers design.
they are strong and very useful. indeed the only problem with the cherry ones is that you can't grip them as hard as you would like, or with grips,
since they are very smooth

actually for me (there i've said it, i have a set ) the only problem is they don't have a long thin blade for getting in the back of bailey type planes.

and don't forget when originally made, before whitworth, all screws were individual, and needed their own tools. :twisted:

as for the saw handle i too would not recommend its removal unless it will move pretty easily once you have given it a little bit of local heat, and maybe some olive oil to break through the "rust".

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

... in addition, modern machine made screwdrivers have a tapered blade whilst the screws have straight slots. Hence the modern driver tends to torque itself out of the slots and causes breakage.

Forgive me, Paul, but I have in front of me a cabinet-pattern turnscrew marked "Toga" - so it's neither new or modern. It has a tapered, shouldered (or winged) blade tip, as do almost all of my screwdrivers, new or otherwise, engineers' or cabinetmakers'......... Personally I think the problem with modern screwdrivers is that they tend to be highly polished and chromium-plated to boot, which is partly why aero industry screwdrivers have chemically blacked un-plated tips and why some are available in a special tip grind, like this:

The problem with this type of tip is that the screwdriver has to be held dead vertical in the slot, so there can be no camming out the blade to get extra leverage, which actually limits their usefulness. They still climb out of the slot and damage it if you use one which is too small (and by too small I mean too thin and/or too narrow), though. It is noticeable that manufacturers of hex drive tips have gone to great lengths in recent years to improve the "grippiness" of their bits, introducing cross hatched designs and even diamond powder coated tips to improve the performance of their product

BTW aircraft-type screwdrivers do not have a flared end, unlike the more conventional cabinet pattern. That flaring is normally a by-product of the (traditional) drop forging process used to create the tip whilst modern non-flared screwdrivers are ground straight from the round bar stock. This is easy with modern abrasives and CNC grinders but was once very costly in terms of time and abrasives (and the drop forging of the tips also work-hardened the steel as well which is no bad thing in a screwdriver tip).

As for slotted tips, they are nothing new and any company supplying engineers tools should be able to supply a selection of DIN standard tips. The problem is that there doesn't appear to be much standardisation on slotted nut sizes in woodworking tools! This means the best way to acquire one which fits is to anneal an old screwdriver, grind the tip with slot to fit the screw, then reharden the tip. But isn't that what bench maintainance engineers do anyway?

And before you ask one of my former (German) employers was a manufacturer of hand tools, and screwdrivers in particular.

Scrit

 

[engineer one]

interesting as usual mate, but sadly your picture did not turn out :?

i am happy to be shown that there were always variations, but the general point remains unless you are very careful with modern screwdrivers of the "mass produced" kind, then you will knacker the slot because we are
now used to the phillips type which accepts a great deal more abuse in positioning.

of course much of this is moot since unless you are restoring you tend not to find slotted screws. indeed 4 years ago i was at the doncaster steam 150th annniversary, and there were a couple of teak ex GNR coaches being renewed. sadly in the woodwork, there were many phillips type screws showing :? too lazy to go find proper ones i think :twisted:

paul

 

[Scrit]

interesting as usual mate, but sadly your picture did not turn out :?

Look OK to me. It's just a round shank with two small diameter grinds across the end. I've seen these being made on a CNC grinder where both sides of the blade were ground simultaneously - the wheels were something like 3 or 4mm radius and the machine was whacking them out at the rate of 300 or so per hour

...unless you are very careful with modern screwdrivers of the "mass produced" kind, then you will knacker the slot because we are now used to the Phillips type which accepts a great deal more abuse in positioning.

Probably more the case. Pozidriv and the more recent Supadriv screws were specifically designed to accommodate cam out so maybe it is a case of habit following design

As to Pozi screws showing in a restoration that seems a bit naughty, doesn't it? If they must use power-driven screws you'd have thought that they could have got hold of square drive (Robertson pattern) as these at least were available and in use in the UK during the 1920s and 30s, albeit not in cordless drivers (take a look inside a pre-WWII Norris plane and you'll see what I mean)

Scrit

 

[engineer one]

hi scrit, no definately can't see the picture.

anyway have just checked my various drivers, ( got a job lot ages ago, :roll: )
the ck's with plastic handles have very sharp blackened points, with a taper to them, whilst the crown wooden handled ones although tapered, are somewhat thicker at the bottom, ie not so sharp, thus making them more likely to hold the screw properly.

however as i have said elsewhere the LN ones are based on gun stock manufacturers pattern where the blade are undercut by a curved grinder, and then the blade is straight to its end. this gives strength and ensures that the blade is more likely not to wrack. but of course unlike the planes, shiny wooden handles are not quite that useful on screwdrivers :?

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

Paul

I've reposted the image, so take a look. I suspect that your gunstock maker's screwdrivers are very similar.

Scrit

 

[engineer one]

right on scrit, just what is on mine :lol: :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[Harbo]

Here's some photos of the saws - the dovetail one (cheaper made - steel back)
is by Mansell Tool Co. Sheffield Cast Steel.
The Frederick Willey has an Elephant Trade mark plus the words "Nopareil"

Sorry did not take a photo of the slotted nuts but very fine slots.
There is some slight play with the blade - is there anyway of curing this without touching the bolts?

Both quite rusty and in need of some work! The tenon saw slopes down to the toe ( not so clear from the photos?)

Rod

 

[Alf]

Here's some photos of the saws - the dovetail one (cheaper made - steel back)
is by Mansell Tool Co. Sheffield Cast Steel.

Hmm, drawn a blank on that so far. It does look a cheaper line, I agree, but the back looks okay. You should see a really cheap back - almost as thin as the blade.

The Frederick Willey has an Elephant Trade mark plus the words "Nopareil"

Oh really? That suggests they might have been scooped up by Wm Tyzack (most often seen in the later guise of Tyzack, Sons & Turner) or perhaps Tyzack was making the saws for them? Cue pencilled notes in the books.

The play in the handle, well I've done all sorts of dodgy things over the years, but probably strategically placed slips of wood has proved most successful. I happily defer to anyone with more superior methods. Looking at the blade though, I reckon that's the least of your worries...

Cheers, Alf

 

[bugbear]

It is noticeable that manufacturers of hex drive tips have gone to great lengths in recent years to improve the "grippiness" of their bits, introducing cross hatched designs and even diamond powder coated tips to improve the performance of their product

I think this is to allow extreme speed and (frankly) carelessness in the operator (e.g. site chippy on piece-work).

I have no problem with cam-out, ever, in anything from straight-slots to torx.

Admitedly I use a suitable (*) brace to drive screws whenever possible

BugBear

(*) "suitable" varies quite widely with application. Fortunately, I have a wide range of braces

 

[bugbear]

interesting as usual mate, but sadly your picture did not turn out :?

Look OK to me. It's just a round shank with two small diameter grinds across the end.

I have a rather small hand cranked grinder (3" diameter wheel) which I use to regrind straight screwdrivers.

It achieves a close to parallel tip whilst allow the shaft to retain maximum thickness (thus strength) as near the tip as possible.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

The Frederick Willey has an Elephant Trade mark plus the words "Nopareil"

Oh really? That suggests they might have been scooped up by Wm Tyzack (most often seen in the later guise of Tyzack, Sons & Turner) or perhaps Tyzack was making the saws for them? Cue pencilled notes in the books.

If Willey was a "tool dealer", it's perfectly normal to have both the maker's and dealer's mark on a tool.

I rest my case.

BugBear (who doesn't own that saw, but snapped it during viewing at an auction)

 

[Alf]

Well there ya go, learnt something. I'd have half expected makers to keep their trademarks to their own branded saws.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Harbo]

After a bit more research and your comments, I think Frederick Willey was a tool dealer and the saw is a Tyzack.

The Corn Exchange in Leeds, where Mr Willey traded from, was not noted for tool making though the address may have spilled out to the adjoining street?
I was born in Leeds and my family, who I have traced back to 1794, all lived in the West Riding. My great great grandfathers and great grandfathers were all atisans of some sort (Blacksmiths, Wheelwrights) and I have always been lead to believe that these tools have been passed down in the family.
The sad thing is that for years I kept onto my father to look after them better, but is was not until a couple of years before he died did he coat them in something, probably Jenolite? - but the damage had been done.
I am going to have a go at them though and see how the tidy up.

Rod

 

[Harbo]

Here's the saws after a bit of a clean up:-

FW (Tyzack) Tenon Saw

Mansell Tool Co Dovetail

FW (Tyzack) Rip saw

Now for some sharpening - have saw set and files but need to make a saw vice!!

Rod