oilstone or water stone and what grade combination to get?

[scubadoo]

You know, I'd always been a bit 'scared' of sharpening, thinking it was some kind of mystical art. But thanks to advice here and online videos I'm really pleased with the results on my new Ashley Iles chisels, and my 6mm Narex.

I splashed out on the Veritas Mk II honing guide which for somebody new to honing, is a great way to get quick, consistent results. You definitely need to be careful with narrow chisels but it was fine. It's a lovely jig to use, really well designed and made. I had the 'deluxe' Axminster one before, what a POS that was!

I spent a bit of time polishing the backs (or face or whatever you call it) with the 1000g and 6000g, then did the 23º bevel and removed the burr.

I really like how you set the secondary bevel on the Veritas, by turning the nob that adjusts the roller. Very quick, very effective.

I didn't find the stones particularly messy or fiddly. I used a tupperware-type container for each stone and laid a piece of anti-slip mat on the lid and used that to put the stone on for honing. Once i'd got the hang of it, it took just a few minutes to do each one and will be even quicker next time as I won't need to touch the backs.

Both brands of chisels took an edge really well. The Narex took a bit longer to polish the flat face but once finished was razor sharp.

Thanks everyone for all the advice.

Cheers

Dave

 

[pswallace]

if you are entering the mine field of sharpening for the first time I would give the scary sharp method A go,you can buy A 'trial' package of lapping paper at workshop heaven for £6 or £7 ,you get three different grits and it lasts many times longer than wet an dry paper it also has adhesive already applied to the back so you can just stick it on A piece of glass and away you go!....p.s A lot of people say you need to use proper 10mm float glass but I just bought A cut off of 4mm glass 30mm x 20mm for less than £1 at A local hardware store and bonded it to A piece of 18mm mdf and it works great.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I would expect to pay much, much less than £1 for a piece of glass 30mmx20mm!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I worked years ago with a chippie (now long dead) who was told , as an apprentice, that the best oil for honing was neats foot oil.
I've not tried it, because I have not used an oil stone for about 30 years. However , for bike leathers and boots there's little better.

 

[James C]

if you are entering the mine field of sharpening for the first time I would give the scary sharp method A go,you can buy A 'trial' package of lapping paper at workshop heaven for £6 or £7 ,you get three different grits and it lasts many times longer than wet an dry paper it also has adhesive already applied to the back so you can just stick it on A piece of glass and away you go!....p.s A lot of people say you need to use proper 10mm float glass but I just bought A cut off of 4mm glass 30mm x 20mm for less than £1 at A local hardware store and bonded it to A piece of 18mm mdf and it works great.

That's not a bad idea actually, I have about 6 sheets of 3'x2' float glass that is around 3/16" thick but was worried that sharpening forces on an uneven school bench would cause it to flex. I think I might have to get some MDF out.

 

[Jacob]

if you are entering the mine field of sharpening for the first time I would give the scary sharp method A go,you can buy A 'trial' package of lapping paper at workshop heaven for £6 or £7 ,you get three different grits and it lasts many times longer than wet an dry paper it also has adhesive already applied to the back so you can just stick it on A piece of glass and away you go!....p.s A lot of people say you need to use proper 10mm float glass but I just bought A cut off of 4mm glass 30mm x 20mm for less than £1 at A local hardware store and bonded it to A piece of 18mm mdf and it works great.

That's not a bad idea actually, I have about 6 sheets of 3'x2' float glass that is around 3/16" thick but was worried that sharpening forces on an uneven school bench would cause it to flex. I think I might have to get some MDF out.

Crazy sharpening ere we go!!
NB It only became a minefield in the last 20 years or so - before that sharpening was cheap and unproblematic. I blame the "circus".

 

[Alf]

I worked years ago with a chippie (now long dead) who was told , as an apprentice, that the best oil for honing was neats foot oil.
I've not tried it, because I have not used an oil stone for about 30 years. However , for bike leathers and boots there's little better.

I use it on my natural stones and like it, although I know some folks feel it's a bit too thick and prefer a 50/50 mix with paraffin (if I remember correctly). They do say that the absolute best honing oil is from the sperm whale, but that's a little hard to come by these days...

 

[JakeS]

I'm in at least partial agreement with several of the guys above - my sharpening "solution" is a honing guide, one of the cheap four-sided diamond stone sets ( for preliminary sharpening, then [the remains of] a set of Workshop Heaven's sampler pack of honing films arranged in order on a bit of glass. All in all the whole lot could have cost me less than £30 if I hadn't splurged on the big bit of float glass from WH as well - which I expect is largely unnecessary. I'll have to buy more papers eventually, of course.

I was really sceptical about the necessity of the honing papers, whether they were really a benefit or just for - as has been suggested - polishing for appearance's sake rather than functionally useful. I have to say, it seems to me to make very little difference over just the diamond stone when whacki- uh, lovingly tapping my chisels with a mallet in hardwoods, but for hand-paring or cutting softer woods it does seem to have improved performance.


(That said, my current sharpening-in-progress is re-squaring a plane iron that someone had helpfully ground about 10 degrees of skew into, and for that I'm using a sheet of 60-grit abrasive paper and the face of my bench hook... ;-))

 

[scubadoo]

I have a couple of old chisels that are either damaged or need the bevel angle changing. What grit should i get to dress these before hitting the 1000g?

Cheers

Dave.

 

[Jacob]

I have a couple of old chisels that are either damaged or need the bevel angle changing. What grit should i get to dress these before hitting the 1000g?

Cheers

Dave.

If it's a belt sander; 60 grit until you have nearly removed the damage then say 100 at 25º , before honing.
Basically very coarse.

PS Instead of wondering about all precise specs for grit sizes it's much more practical and probably a lot cheaper if you just think "coarse, medium, fine". Plus, for special occasions if the work demands it, extra fine and/or strop.
Most woodworkers got by (before sharpening got so difficult) with double sided stone equivalent to medium/fine, for virtually everything.

 

[scubadoo]

I have a couple of old chisels that are either damaged or need the bevel angle changing. What grit should i get to dress these before hitting the 1000g?

Cheers

Dave.

If it's a belt sander; 60 grit until you have nearly removed the damage then say 100 at 25º , before honing.
Basically very coarse.

PS Instead of wondering about all precise specs for grit sizes it's much more practical and probably a lot cheaper if you just think "coarse, medium, fine". Plus, for special occasions if the work demands it, extra fine and/or strop.
Most woodworkers got by (before sharpening got so difficult) with double sided stone equivalent to medium/fine, for virtually everything.

I'm thinking of a waterstone.

And if there are precise grits, why not find out which one to use in a particular scenario :?:

I get the coarse, medium, fine thing. I just want to know how coarse i need to go whilst still being able to remove scratches with the medium 1000g. Is 220 too coarse? but will 400 cut damaged chisels quickly enough?

 

[Jacob]

......
And if there are precise grits, why not find out which one to use in a particular scenario :?:

Google "fallacy of false precision"

I get the coarse, medium, fine thing. I just want to know how coarse i need to go whilst still being able to remove scratches with the medium 1000g. Is 220 too coarse? but will 400 cut damaged chisels quickly enough?

I don't know what these numbers represent. I'd just use a coarse stone or roughest bit of emery paper, whatever.. My belt sander belts have numbers and 60 grit is about as coarse as I'd go.

 

[tomatwark]

Most woodworkers got by (before sharpening got so difficult) with double sided stone equivalent to medium/fine, for virtually everything.

Which funny enough is the way I was taught when I was an apprentice and after years of using diamond stones, water stones, ceramic stones and various other techniques have just gone back to for most of my sharpening as I have decided for most jobs the edge is more than acceptable and is a lot quicker.

Tom

 

[dodi]

Google "fallacy of false precision"

Hello to everybody!
As I have pretty close connections in a factory, in my country, which is manufacturing abrasives I can say that there is no "false precision" involved in grading man made water stones or other kind of abrasives, at least in the case of respectable manufacturers.

 

[DTR]

I think Jacob's point (please correct me of I'm wrong) was that such precision isn't necessary

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I have a couple of old chisels that are either damaged or need the bevel angle changing. What grit should i get to dress these before hitting the 1000g?

Cheers

Dave.

Most people would probably prefer a grinder of some sort (offhand with Norton 3X wheel, wetstone such as Tormek, or ebay hand-crank grinder) to reshape bevels or repair gross damage like chipped chisels, but if you prefer waterstone, just use the coarsest grade you can find. Flatten it frequently on a piece of wet-and-dry stuck to a square of float glass (soaking the wet-and-dry in water will give it enough stickability).

I was doing something similar today. I had a few junk-shop chisels to take rust pits out of the back (face?) of. Rather than spend on a diamond lapping plate, I thought I might as well try the waterstones that have been languishing in a tupperware box in the bottom of the toolchest. I did just as described above, using first a 220/1000 grit stone. (Actually, that's a fib - the first step was a rub on the 150 grit wet-and-dry I used to flatten the stones - worked a treat at getting the lumps, bumps and cruddy bits out of the way). Then just worked through the usual medium and fine, making sure the waterstones were kept quite flat.

Worked a treat, but I'd forgotten how messy the process is. It almost took longer to clean up than do the job. That's why the waterstones normally languish in their tupperware box. I'll go back to the ceramic stones for normal sharpening - much cleaner and neater.

 

[scubadoo]

I have a couple of old chisels that are either damaged or need the bevel angle changing. What grit should i get to dress these before hitting the 1000g?

Cheers

Dave.

Most people would probably prefer a grinder of some sort (offhand with Norton 3X wheel, wetstone such as Tormek, or ebay hand-crank grinder) to reshape bevels or repair gross damage like chipped chisels, but if you prefer waterstone, just use the coarsest grade you can find. Flatten it frequently on a piece of wet-and-dry stuck to a square of float glass (soaking the wet-and-dry in water will give it enough stickability).

unfortunately I can't afford a grinder. My father in law has quickly ground off the damage on his cheap grinder but let's just say his level of precision is slightly less than I'd go for!I don't find the waterstones that messy i put down a small piece of anti-slip mat, put the tupperware lid on that then a smaleer piece of mat and then the stone so that the lid contains all the mess.

And i have a few from ebay that just need the bevel adjusting but it takes far too long on the 1000g hence wanting something coarse. I went with a 220g.

 

[Jacob]

What is 220g?
There's a chart here.The paper grit size I'd use for coarse grinding would be P60 (left hand column)

 

[bugbear]

I think Jacob's point (please correct me of I'm wrong) was that such precision isn't necessary

If so, he's misunderstood the concept. Having googled as he instructed, I learn that the "fallacy of false precision" is claiming to have more accuracy than is justified by the information available, NOT using more accuracy than is required.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_precision

False precision (also called overprecision, fake precision, misplaced precision and spurious accuracy) occurs when numerical data are presented in a manner that implies better precision than is actually the case; since precision is a limit to accuracy, this often leads to overconfidence in the accuracy as well.

Personally, I'm quite happy to use common sense to work out what someone means by "2000 grit" without them actually having to long windedly put plus and minus tolerances in.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

It's about not conflating "precision" and "accuracy" (in this instance).
You said it here (more or less):

....since precision is a limit to accuracy, this often leads to overconfidence in the accuracy as well.....

You got it wrong here

...NOT using more accuracy than is required......

You meant "NOT using more precision than is required".