Oak for a Wooden Plane Body?

[xraymtb]

I picked up an Oak offcut the other day at Lanarkshire Hardwoods to practice my hand planing on and its actually turned out to be a nice stable, straight, nicely grained piece.

As it is a bit short, I don't really have a use for it but was planning to make a #5 plane and a scrub at some point. Does anyone know if Oak would be ok for that? Is there any reason not to use Oak to make a plane?

 

[woodbloke]

Is there any reason not to use Oak to make a plane?

I can't see any reason why you ought not to be able to make decent plane from oak. If you could get hold of something much harder to use for the bottom, it would be better but does make it trickier to make. Speak to Philly if you need a blade - Rob

 

[MikeG.]

In a conversation last week with Philly, he suggested to me that open pore woods such as oak and ash are not the best for plane bodies, being more prone to movement than the more traditional beech or other tighter-pored timbers.

Phil will no doubt be along shortly.......

Mike

 

[Philly]

Mike
You can use oak for a plane (you sometimes come across old "user made" planes in Oak) but it is recommended that you use a close grained timber like beech or maple. The open pores of Oak will pick up dirt and catch on the work.
Saying that, if its your first go at a plane, and you have a piece in your possession, then go for it. Once you've made one plane you'll probably want to make another, and it better to make the odd mistake on something not too precious :wink:
Hope this helps,
Philly

P.S. Your blades are underway..... :lol:

 

[Steve Maskery]

Is there not an issue about oak and iron here? I would have thought that a ferrous blade in a block of oak was asking for trouble. I'm no plane-maker (yet!) but it seems to me that oak is unsuitable on those grounds alone. Or am I missing something?
Cheers
Steve

 

[MikeG.]

Mike
Once you've made one plane you'll probably want to make another :wink:
Philly
P.S. Your blades are underway..... :lol:

:shock: :shock:

Not sure I'm quite ready Phil!!!

 

[woodbloke]

Mike
Once you've made one plane you'll probably want to make another :wink:
Philly
P.S. Your blades are underway..... :lol:

:shock: :shock:

Not sure I'm quite ready Phil!!!

You'll get plenty of encouragement here Mike :lol: - Rob

 

[frugal]

Is there not an issue about oak and iron here? I would have thought that a ferrous blade in a block of oak was asking for trouble. I'm no plane-maker (yet!) but it seems to me that oak is unsuitable on those grounds alone. Or am I missing something?

Surely the worst that could happen is that the Oak of the plane around the iron will darken. I can not see how that would affect the piece of wood you are planing.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Surely the worst that could happen is that the Oak of the plane around the iron will darken. I can not see how that would affect the piece of wood you are planing.

It's not the workpiece I'm worried about, Frugal, nor the discoloration of the plane body. I'm concerned that the blade will go rusty from the tannic acid in the wood.

Cheers
Steve

 

[frugal]

Surely the worst that could happen is that the Oak of the plane around the iron will darken. I can not see how that would affect the piece of wood you are planing.

It's not the workpiece I'm worried about, Frugal, nor the discoloration of the plane body. I'm concerned that the blade will go rusty from the tannic acid in the wood.

Ah!, I had not realised that the reaction went both ways. I had assumed that any rusting would have been caused only by good old H2O.

Trying to dredge up the basics of A-Level chemistry that I scrapped through on 20 years ago... It is the Oxygen in H2O that the iron is reating to. In an acid you will get free H+ atoms, and in an alkali you will get OH- molecules (water of course is the wierd one being both). So if anything I would expect Tannic acid to act as a rust removal agent.

Of course a quick goolge shows that tannic acid is C76H52O46 so I am sure that all sorts of reactions involving OH- molecules are possible.

In other words I havn't a clue

 

[MikeG.]

I'll post a picture this evening to show what oak actually does to tool steel. All my chisels, planes and saws are black at the moment because of the green oak stuff I am doing..........it isn't an oxydisation issue. I don't think it speeds up rusting.........it is, I think, a direct attack by the tannin (tannic acid).

Mike

 

[bugbear]

Ever pulled a steel screw out of oak? - it will be buggered.

Don't mix oak and iron.

BugBear

 

[Pete W]

Except that David Finck's excellent Making and Mastering Wood Planes suggests oak as plane material. His only caution is to find a denser piece with close growth rings. Several of his planes pictured in the book certainly look like oak.

A quick Google on the subject also shows several modern craftsmen-made planes, and quite a few antiques.

How much tannic acid is there in a well-dried piece of stock? Of course there are better woods but if a nice piece of oak is to hand I can't see a problem in using it.

 

[Benchwayze]

Ever pulled a steel screw out of oak? - it will be buggered.

Don't mix oak and iron.

BugBear

Agreed... Not no way at all. !

 

[Steve Maskery]

Mike
Well, it is and it isn't oxidation!

It's true that the black stain is not rust as we think of it, but it is still oxidation of the iron in the blade.

The iron reacts with atmospheric oxygen in the presence of water to make rust. We are all too familiar with that. But then the rust reacts with the tannic acid to make iron tannate. That's the dark blue/black stuff and is the basis of traditional writing ink. That is very stable and does not continue to react, so it forms a sort of passivation on the iron. You could actually argue that it is beneficial! It just looks awful and we don't like it.

So in the presence of oak, iron is oxidized to iron tannate rather than to iron oxide. I'd have to look up whether it's ferrous or ferric tannate, it's 30 years since I did any chemistry!

Cheers
Steve

 

[MikeG.]

Thank you Steve.......very interesting!

I'm going to read that a few times, learn it, and sound very learned on the subject at work (we do lots of green-oak designs).

Cheers

Mike

 

[xraymtb]

That made for interesting reading

Seeing as how it only cost me £3 and I have a blade lying around, I might just have a go.

 

[Digit]

As the only timber thick enough that was available for the job my bench planes are made of Oak. The rust problem isn't a problem as the bodies have been soaked in Linseed oil.
One plane is now five years old and iron shows no sign of rust.
For those who know more about the subject than me, how does the Oak that the Japanese use differ from English Oak?

Roy.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Roy
I've no idea whether or not I know more than you on this particular subject, but I do know that different Oaks have different tannin levels. English Oak (quercus robur) is particularly high, so that is what we are traditionally familiar with.

But AWO (quercus blancus yankus) is relatively low (which is why it doesn't respond terribly well to ammonia), and, if you are saying that oak is common for Japanese planes (quercus nipponicus), then I suspect that that is low too.

I knew my chemistry degree would come in handy one day!

Cheers
Steve

 

[Philly]

Roy
I'm no expert on Japanese planes but I do know that the oak they use is very different from the Oak we are familiar with here in the West.
Cheers
Philly