Oak for a bed headboard - £235.00 inc. VAT + £80.00 delivery

[Martingchapman]

HELP!!

I want to build a new headboard for our (normal size) double bed.
I found a plan I liked so worked out the cutting list, details below, exact finished sizes, all in mm (sorry about the format but I could not work out how to post a formatted table).

Legs - Qty 4 / Thickness 75 / Width 75 / Length 1200 / Cubic metres 0.027
Top Rail - Qty 1 / Thickness 25 / Width 200 / Length 1310 / Cubic metres 0.00655
Bottom Rail - Qty 1 / Thickness 25 / Width 150 / Length 1310 / Cubic metres 0.0049125
Stretcher - Qty 1 / Thickness 25 / Width 150 / Length 1310 / Cubic metres 0.0049125
Slats - Qty 14 / Thickness 15 / Width 100 / Length 320 / Cubic metres 0.00672
Capitals - Qty 2 / Thickness 25 / Width 100 / Length 100 / Cubic metres 0.0005
Balls - Qty 2 / Thickness 100 / Width 100 / Length 100 / Cubic metres 0.002
Total Cubic metres = 0.052595
Total Cubic feet = 1.857375

I sent this list of to a couple of suppliers, the first quote I received was £235.00 inc. VAT + £80.00 delivery for European Prime Grade Oak Boards, I assume this is sawn.

Taken on the exact measurements above (1.857375 cubic feet) this works out at £126.50 per cubic foot, plus £80.00 delivery!!

Now I know it is not as simple as I have made it above because I have not taken into account the waste, however, for £315 I could buy headboards for all three beds in the house and probably have enough left over to take the family out for a curry!

So they may not be Oak and I would not have had the fun of making them but I just cant justify this sort of cost.

Am I doing something wrong in the way I have approached this?
Is there a better way of getting hold of a suitable quantity of Oak in the right sizes for my project?
How would other members of the forum approach this task?

Being a newbie this is the first time I have tried to purchase hardwood for a specific project and unless I can find a better way of doing it, it will be the last!

I understand that good wood is expensive and I was thinking (even prepared) to pay somewhere in the region of £100 plus perhaps £20 for carriage but £315 is just too much.

Martin.

 

[MikeG.]

Martin,

that is way over the top........but don't despair!

Where is Langdon Hills? If you can get to Colchester (well, Manningtree) Thorogood Timbers should be doing this at around £35 or £40 per cubic foot sawn.............and will let you choose the boards yourself if you want.

Before you get a quote, make sure you are know whether you are asking for sawn or for planed....it will make a vast difference to your price. Now that I have a planer thicknesser I always go for sawn.

If not Thorogoods, then there are a number of others who will beat that silly price..............but go back to the old companies and check whether they are quoting for sawn or planed first.

Mike

 

[big soft moose]

I wonder if the high price is because they think you want it all cut to size rather than in equivalent boards

i'm only a novice furniture maker too , but we make a lot of gates and signs at work and we generally get our oak from henry venables (nr stafford but national delivery) who come in at a much more reasonable price.

they also have a price calculator on their website

http://www.henryvenables.com/PAR.aspx?P ... FQodvCRZyg

 

[RobertMP]

I can only think your list is confusing them.

See if you can find a local timber yard that does hardwoods and go there with an idea of how many feet length of what cross section you need in total and ask them for a price that way.

good luck

 

[woodchip]

I would buy only 2 sizes of timber for your project,

19mm x 97mm and
25mm x 97mm.

Both PAR

I would joint the 97x25 to make 194x25 (near enough 200)

I would laminate 4x 25x97 to make 100 x 97 for the balls and 3 25x97 for the legs, trimmed to 75x75

I would thickness (or get them to) the 19mm doen to 15mm as required.

This may turn out to be a lot cheaper.

See BritishHardwoods for prices

Hope this helps

 

[jasonB]

You say that your cut list is all finished sizes but what have you calculated the volume on? these are all typical nominal sawn sizes fo will have to be cut from the next size up for example.

To get 75x 75mm finish size the supplier will have to cut from 102mm thick boards so the sawn volume will be something like 4No@ 102x85x1200= 0.41m3 a 50% increase in volume plus the fact that 102mm kiln dried oak will cost a premium due to the much longer time it has to stay in the kiln.

same with the top rail that will have to come out of 32x225 and expect to be charged for a full board length at maybe 2400, again 9" boards will attract a premium

Allowing a small amount for waste that list would need to come out of at least 3cu.ft

Any suppliers would take that as finished sizes as that is what you have said you are asking for so you are paying someone to set their machine up for a number of different sizes, put it this way would you want to machine that up for say 50% of the total cost given that with overheads etc you could be paying £40/hrs.

Jason

 

[jasonB]

Interesting that Henery venerballs site, its for SAWN timber, if you enter the bed post sizes as comming out of 100x85x1200 it will cost you £189 :!: and thats just 4 posts

This is similar to SLH at approx £50 per meter run of 100x100

You should be expecting to pay in the region of £100/cu ft for prepared Euro oak.

Jason

 

[Martingchapman]

First of all, a big thankyou to all the forum members who have replied so quickly.

Mike,
Langdon Hills is south Essex near Basildon, but within striking distance of Thorogoods so may well pay them a visit. The first quote was for "boards only" they quoted PAR but this was £299 plus.

Big soft moose,
Had a look at Henryvenables when I enter my requirements in their online calculator it comes up with a price of £120.53 plus vat = £138.61 plus delivery to Essex (£75) = £213.61 which is about the same as the other quote without delivery so they are a little cheaper, however they have a minimum order value of £300??

RobertMP
Have found a local timber yard E.O Burton in Brentwood so along with Thorogoods may give them a try.

Woodchip,
Like your suggestion, although it is more work jointing the boards together if I cant get the wood at a more sensible price it may make the project affordable.

JasonB,
Yes the volume is based on the finished sizes so it would increase to enable the wood to be cut from the next size up. The quote I received was for sawn timber not cut to my cutting list exactly, but you are right, if they did all the cutting it would be very expensive.

Now, I need a little more help.
Given the high cost of transport and the possibilities for misunderstanding what I want it looks as if I need to visit the timber yard in person. I will try E.O Burtons first as they are only about 15 mins away, and if no joy try Thorogoods.
I have a planer and a thicknesser and a table saw, so sawn timber is what I am looking for.

How should I approach them.
On their web site EOB list Oak in 1", 1 1/4", 1 1/2", 2", 2 1/2", 3" and 4"
Should I make a new cutting list in imperial sizes using the next size up thickness they offer ie where I want 15mm thick finished (actual 5/8") ask for 1", where I want 25mm (actual 1") ask for 1 1/4" etc (to allow for machining). Should I add 1/4" or 1/2" to the thickness for machining?
What do I do about width and length, if I want 200mm wide finished (actual 4") should I ask for 4 1/2" (allow 1/2" for machining). Am I likely to get 4 1/2" wide or am I only going to get 4" or 5" as a choice?
Also the same applies for length, if I want 1310mm finished (actual 52") should I ask for 53" (is allowing 1" on the length enough) or again is there going to be a stock length 48" or 60" for example.
Am I asking too much and being too precise in thinking I need a piece 4 1/2" by 53".
Are the timber yard going to dismiss me as a rank amateur (which of course I am) and treat me accordingly?
I don't want to appear a total d**k.

Any help/guidance/suggestions as to how to approach the timber yard and what to take in the form of cutting list would be most welcome.

Martin.

 

[jasonB]

personally I would look at teh plans again and see if the posts can be 68x68 finish, rails 18mm finish and the slats 12mm as you could then treat your list as nominal sizes.

If you want to stick with the finished sizes as shown then it is usual to allow 3mm each side for planing so 6mm overall. To get what you want I would ask for the following

-posts 2.7m length of 100x175 or glued from 2No 2.7x50x175

-top rail 2.4m length 32x225, this would also yeild the capitals and the balls glued up from 4No bits of 100x100x25thick each.

-Bottom & stretcher 2.7m 32x175

- Slats 2No 2.4m 25x125

You cannot expect to get a piece 4.5x53 so be prepared to be given a piece that will yeild that size which will likely be 5" wide and possibly 8ft or over long. That is why its best to group up the parts from similar thickness stock as I have done above.

Jason

 

[Waka]

Martin

Do you, per chance have a drawing of your design. I made a headboard a few years ago and used about the same you are quoting.

What type of oak are you thinking off, if its AWO then you should be able to get that for about £30.00 a cuft, European slightly dearer.

Most companies out there do have a minimum order value, we, that is the woodkateers, combine our orders thereby saving on the delivery charge.

 

[p111dom]

I've given up on supplying yards with a cutting list for the very same reason. I was trying to quote for a diningroom table which I estimated I'd need about 4 cubic feet for when done. I estimated about £150 for the timber but after supplying a similar list I was getting quotes of £450 plus for rough sawn boards. When I went to a yard and saw what they were trying to sell me for the list it was more like 10 cubic feet they were trying to sell me. It's like they just took out one 10 foot board for each item whether it was 6 feet or 2 feet long. It's always better to go and choose your own if you can. For may projects you can get away with short boards or offcuts which can cost a fraction of the cubic price. I bought this little lot last week for £70 inc VAT.

There must be about 3.5-4 cubic feet here.

 

[Escudo]

On the subject of Henry Venables I bought a pack of Oak from them like one of these;

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_...character+grade+Oak&_sacat=See-All-Categories

It was excellent value for money, less than £10 ft3. All different thicknesses, widths and lengths. Well worth a look.

Tony.

 

[big soft moose]

Interesting that Henery venerballs site, its for SAWN timber, if you enter the bed post sizes as comming out of 100x85x1200 it will cost you £189 :!: and thats just 4 posts

This is similar to SLH at approx £50 per meter run of 100x100

You should be expecting to pay in the region of £100/cu ft for prepared Euro oak.

Jason

you can get sawn or PAR from venables - it depends which bit you select on the home page ( I may have posted the sawn page as thats whats favorited because thats what we buy)

and yes buying that cutting list will be expensive but like someonelse higher up i would just order two sizes and joint or laminate accordingly

it occurs to me that another reason for high price may be small quantity - we normally buy in bulk (arround 30-40 cu ft) at a time for which we get a discount , so i dont know what they are like for small ammouts.

( the reason we are buying that much is because we manage two national trails and are making lots of signs, gates and benches)

 

[Richard Findley]

Hi Martin,

I've been looking at your list, I reckon if you are prepared to cut and plane the wood yourself, which it sounds like you are, then you could do this buying about 4 boards of Oak and the cost would be much closer to your original £100 ish.

1x 75mm Board aprox 2.4-3m long by 150mm-200mm wide will do all your legs.

2x 25mm Boards aprox 3m long and again 150-200 wide should handle all of your bits and bobs,

1x 50mm (To join up to 100mm as 100mm a rare and expensive!!!) 150mm wide and 4m long will sort out your balls :wink:

All of the above board sizes are quite realistic and should be more than enough for your project, with some left over for a couple of little boxes or such like. Also, by my calculations there is 0.105 cubic metres and at aprox £1527 +VAT (the cost of my last piece of 50mm AWO) total cost is £184.38.

Hope this helps,

Richard

 

[ByronBlack]

Martin, I live round the corner from you, and have used EO Burtons a fair bit over the last few years. I was after some oak recently, and they qouted me £40 for prime white oak per cube foot. I always find them to be accomodating when giving them a cutting list, I explain to them I want it in rough sawn boards with x% of waste, and they work it out. There quotes have been pretty reasonable for beech and mahogany that I've bought from them, but can't pass comment on oak, but £40 cuft was what they qouted me recently.

 

[Martingchapman]

JasonB
I like your suggestion of grouping parts from similar thickness stock (thanks for taking the time to specifically detail the stock required for my project). I would like to stick to the original finished sizes.
I have to admit that I made an error on the original list, there are only 2 legs not 4 so this reduces the stock required a little.

Taking this into account and JasonB list I now end up with the following list;

2 x Legs ....................................100 x 100 x 2.7 = 0.02700 cubic metres
1 x Top Rail + Capitals + Balls .....32 x 225 x 2.4 = 0.01728 cubic metres
1 x Stretcher + 1 x Bottom Rail ....32 x 175 x 2.7 = 0.01512 cubic metres
7 x Slats ....................................25 x 125 x 2.4 = 0.00750 cubic metres
7 x Slats ....................................25 x 125 x 2.4 = 0.00750 cubic metres
................................................................Total = 0.07440 cubic metres
.........................................Convert to cubic feet = 2.63
...................................Cost @ £40per cubic foot = £105

If I have worked this out correctly it is a bit more what I was expecting.

Richard, thanks for your suggestions, as you can see I am following that line of thought.

ByronBlack,
Thanks for the info regards EO Burtons, I have a few questions.
If I sent them the above cutting list do you think they would be happy to quote.
Does it matter if the list is metric or imperial.
When you ask for "rough sawn boards" are these literally sawn from the trunk with the bark still on and no straight edges, and if so is this the cheapest way to buy sawn timber?
I dont understand the "x% of waste", sorry to appear a little thick but could you explain how this works.

Martin.

 

[ByronBlack]

Martin,

I usually do what Jason does and group the boards you need into common sizes.

I would personally phone EO Burton's, and explain you a newbie, and you have a cutting list and would like a quote. I usually give my cutting list in imperial, it just makes it a bit easy on the eye to read rather than them worrying about mm's but it shouldn't really matter, they are all pro's.

Rough sawn boards are usually as you suggest (and usually the cheapest way of buying as no machining has taken place), although the last lot of rough I got didn't have the bark, but were 'waney' edge meaning you have to cut one straight edge (a doddle with your tablesaw). sometimes you will get rough sawn with two straight edges, which might be more likely with your cutting list as they'll probably group components into single boards for you to rip down.

x% just means the amount of wastage i.e it could be 25% 50% or whatever, again, the guys at EOB will help you determine the appropriate wastage factor to consider.

 

[wizer]

Personally, find it impossible trying to explain myself on the telephone. Make an appointment to go and see them with your cutting list, but work backwards from their standard stock sizes. If they won't let you pick through the boards, at least try to get them to agree to deliver a bit extra that you can send back straight away on delivery. This guards you against the risk of getting a really ugly duckling board. I have sent cutting lists in the past but would never do that again. I'd also not try to buy the exact amount of timber I needed, always a bit more. It will always get used.

Did you try Morgans in Rochester. Not really known for fantastic prices, but quite helpful in my experience and if you pre-arrange it, they let you pick through the boards. It's also a place you have to see to believe. This is what I imagine a timber yard to look like (and then some).

 

[ByronBlack]

I would generally agree with your sentiments Wizer, but EOB specify they get a cutting list sent to them and dealt with on the phone, as they are usually too busy processing orders to deal with you face to face (unless of course you are a large trade customer).

Thats what I like about EOB's, I can deal with everything remotely, get prices etc.. and then decide if I want to make the trip. Also, I have to say so far I've been lucky and have not got a bad board from them, but then I've only bought stuff in small quantities - I usually go their to collect the boards after they've given me a quote and I can have a good look at them while loading up, so there's a chance to swap out any really bad ones. That's also why i've been a bit reluctant to buy 'blind' and have stuff delivered.

I agree with wizer about morgans, they are very helpful, however, they quoted me £90 cuft for the same stuff as EOB's (at £40 cuft) :shock:

 

[wizer]

I agree with wizer about morgans, they are very helpful, however, they quoted me £90 cuft for the same stuff as EOB's (at £40 cuft) :shock:

Indeed, their prices are high. I'd use them only if I wanted to pick my own boards out of a large selection of stock.