Norton 3X grinding wheel in Europe

[Oskar Sedell]

Hi,

I´m trying to find a reseller of the 6 Inch, Norton 3X coarse grinding wheel, but so far I´ve only located North american sources. Hoping to avoid custom troubles and expenses, does anyone know of a reseller in Europe?

Many thanks,

Oskar

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi Oskar

This is not information about where to purchase a 3X. It is what to purchase instead.

The 3X is, in my opinion, a horrible wheel. It is the messiest around, and sheds grit and dust everywhere. It is a hazard to health. Plus they wear fast, and you'll be purchasing another in a year. There is a much better wheel to purchase, and you will do so once, and never again. Get a 180 grit CBN wheel. They come in 6" and 8" diameters.

If one is using a vitreous silicon carbide grinding wheel - the recommended white wheels are typically 46 grit - then the resulting bevel is quite coarse and serrated. One tends to follow a hollow grind off such a wheel with a coarse stone . In fact, it was recommended that one did not grind to the edge of the blade ... not just because of the resulting heat, but to preserve as much of the old smooth bevel as possible. Unfortunately, leaving this edge comes complete with a rounded wear bevel. It needs to be removed.

The advantage of a CBN wheel is not just they are great at keeping their shape (because they do not wear) and grinding quite cool (like a Tormek); the advantage is also that one can use a reasonably smooth grit, such as 180, and that this produces a smoother surface at the end of the hollow. Indeed, one can grind safely to the edge (enough to raise a fine wire, and no more than than).

I have recommended a step beyond this, and that is to use the Tormek BGM-100, since this will enable the grind to be dead straight. It is not just that the resulting hollow grind is super clean and straight, but when ground to the edge of the blade, it is possible to move directly to honing with higher grits. I start with 6000 grit. This requires about 3 strokes to raise a smooth and straight shine with a wire to the back of the blade. A couple of strokes on a 13000, and you are done. The hollow will remain this friendly for quite a long time. Grinding like this means less grinding.

Here is a honed edge off a hollow created on a CBN wheel ..

180- and 80 grit wheels, half-speed 8" grinder, and Tormek BGM-100 tool rest ..

Article: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... SetUp.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Oskar Sedell]

Derek, thank you for taking the time to answer. And for suggesting something else.

Here´s some background on my wheel hunt (I should have written this in the first place). Recently I got my hands on a hand cranked grinder in very decent condition. By googling around the best choice seemed to be the Norton 3X wheel. Multiple sources Report that it is the fastest choice. Now there is this old, Grey, sandstone-like wheel on my grinder which is very slow.

My shop is very small and located in the basement next to the neighbours and therefore I try to avoid dust and noise as much as I can. Hence I want to try if a hand cranked grinder fulfill my needs. For the moment it is more about toolmaking and reshaping e.g plane irons, carving knifes, making skew chisels etc. than putting perfect hollow grinds on all of my blades.

Do you think a CBN wheel would be useful as a hand cranked wheel or is this just pearls for swine? Is it sensitive to grinding not only hardened steel but softer metal, like the iron backing on japanese tools? If a CBN wheel is a reasonable choice, even for lower grinding speeds, then I have to reevaluate my plan. And I would then have a good wheel for the day I realize that I actually want an electric grinder instead. Do you have experience with CBN wheels of coarser grit than 180?

Looking forward to hear your thoughts,

Oskar

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Oskar, spending the money for a CBN wheel will depend on the quality of the hand grinder. That is, if it turns smoothly and does not wobble. I've had a few that were poor users.

Assuming the grinder works as it should, adding a 180 grit CBN wheel would be the best option. Pricy, but the best. These wheels do not wear, so there is minimal maintenance and setup.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[David C]

Oskar,

Classic Handtools have 8" 3X wheels, 46grit or 60 grit.

They must deal with Norton and are usually very helpful.

What Derek says is true, there is mess, rather like being sandblasted, so face protection essential.

However they do cut very cool. I have a 46g in a regular bench grinder.

Best wishes,
David

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

David, if you have not used a CBN wheel, then you are missing something that is a real game changer. They run cooler than the 3X, not far off a Tormek - the metal wheels are one large heat sink - and, of course, far faster.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Oskar Sedell]

Oskar,

Classic Handtools have 8" 3X wheels, 46grit or 60 grit.

They must deal with Norton and are usually very helpful.

What Derek says is true, there is mess, rather like being sandblasted, so face protection essential.

However they do cut very cool. I have a 46g in a regular bench grinder.

Best wishes,
David

Hi David,

thanks for the tip! I might contact them, when I´ve sorted out if a Norton wheel is what I want.

Oskar

 

[Oskar Sedell]

Oskar, spending the money for a CBN wheel will depend on the quality of the hand grinder. That is, if it turns smoothly and does not wobble. I've had a few that were poor users.

Assuming the grinder works as it should, adding a 180 grit CBN wheel would be the best option. Pricy, but the best. These wheels do not wear, so there is minimal maintenance and setup.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thank you Derek!

I checked the gear ratio when I got home yesterday, it is at 1:18 giving 1080 rpm when cranking at 1 revolution per second. I guess at normal cranking it is between 1 and 2 cranks a second. Do you know if 1000-2000 rpm is a good working speed for CBN wheels?

I have to double check for wobble, but my grinder runs smoothly and if there is some wooble to the shaft I havent noticed so far.

Is there some CBN wheel brands worth looking closer for?

Best regards,

Oskar

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I'm not sure that cool-running wheels are a real essential on a hand-crank grinder. As you point out, you can reach a fair speed with one without any load, but as soon as you apply a tool to the wheel, speed will diminish more than somewhat. You can burn tools, but you have to be trying very hard indeed or being very careless.

One of the joys of hand-cranks is their relative low cost, and their capacity to use just about anything that will fit and turn for a wheel. It's probably best to use a fairly coarse wheel, and dress the periphery to a very slight crown. Buying several wheels allows the user to dress them to different curves to regrind tools with in-curved edges such as scribing gouges and irons for hollow planes.

No reason at all why a CBN wheel wouldn't work on a hand-crank, but it may be wise to avoid grinding softer steels. It's easy to re-dress a clogged conventional wheel. but I don't know how one would clean a clogged CBN wheel. Maybe Derek could advise?

Another small point to note is that as hand-crank grinders tend not to have guards, they tend to be messy. There's nothing to catch and contain metal particles or bits of spent wheel grit. Dressing wheels is even messier, and best done outside - certainly consider covering anything sensitive to abrasives before starting, and have a really good clean-up after.

 

[Oskar Sedell]

I'm not sure that cool-running wheels are a real essential on a hand-crank grinder. As you point out, you can reach a fair speed with one without any load, but as soon as you apply a tool to the wheel, speed will diminish more than somewhat. You can burn tools, but you have to be trying very hard indeed or being very careless.

One of the joys of hand-cranks is their relative low cost, and their capacity to use just about anything that will fit and turn for a wheel. It's probably best to use a fairly coarse wheel, and dress the periphery to a very slight crown. Buying several wheels allows the user to dress them to different curves to regrind tools with in-curved edges such as scribing gouges and irons for hollow planes.

No reason at all why a CBN wheel wouldn't work on a hand-crank, but it may be wise to avoid grinding softer steels. It's easy to re-dress a clogged conventional wheel. but I don't know how one would clean a clogged CBN wheel. Maybe Derek could advise?

Another small point to note is that as hand-crank grinders tend not to have guards, they tend to be messy. There's nothing to catch and contain metal particles or bits of spent wheel grit. Dressing wheels is even messier, and best done outside - certainly consider covering anything sensitive to abrasives before starting, and have a really good clean-up after.

Thanks for pointing out a few important things. Indeed I´m split between getting the best wheel possible, and just a very coarse and cheap wheel to handle the rough reshaping tasks I´m longing for at the moment. I´m aware of the messiness of truing grinding wheels and this will take place outside. I´ve mounted my grinder on a board, and Ive set up a simple dust-catcher behind the wheel. If needed I will just add another board above the wheel.

It is very true that the speed goes down when grinding, I have to test tonight how much this is.

Do you have experience with some coarse wheels that work well and that you would recommend?

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

The only steel that a CBN should not grind is mild steel, or annealed steel. I doubt you will be sharpening much of that

I have never clogged a CBN wheel ... but, should this ever occur, the way to unclog it is to grind hardened steel.

I have used hand cranked wheels, and they are very capable of burning an edge. Just spin the wheel and let the steel heat. ****, you could burn steel with a CBN wheel if you tried hard enough. A delicate hand on a cranked wheel rewards you with a slow speed and low heat potential - that, and the absence of electricity, is why many like a hand cranked grinder. I had one, then bought a Tormek.

How slow can the wheel turn and still work a CBN wheel? Well, there are CBN wheels now for the Tormek, which turns at 90-120 rpm. You can go pretty slow and it still works.

CBN wheels have been around for decades. They have been well known to turners, who used them to grind hard steels, such as M2 and M4. So they handle heat and high speeds as well. Plus they do not wear out with the heat created. They just last and last.

I really cannot think of a negative. Yes, they probably cost double, perhaps more, than a 3X. It is interesting that the guy who made the 3X famous, and sells them in the USA - Joel Moskowitz (Tools for Working Wood) - now recommends and uses a CBN wheel as well!

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Oskar Sedell]

Hi Derek,

thank you again for your input. I will start looking for a CBN wheel that can be fitted to the shaft of my grinder. I might get back with more questions later on.

Best regards,

Oskar