next part of the learning curve, DOVETAILS
- Thread starter engineer one
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Anonymous
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The actual width of the tails varies from 30 (mine on the right, not all the same size for some reason!) to 40mm.
The first 2 and mine had to be tails 1st as the tails were cut with the 2nd cut in the kerf of the 1st which accounts for the very thin pins.
The heavy knife mark seems normal you see it all over the place in old work including good quality stuff.
cheers
Jacob
The first 2 and mine had to be tails 1st as the tails were cut with the 2nd cut in the kerf of the 1st which accounts for the very thin pins.
The heavy knife mark seems normal you see it all over the place in old work including good quality stuff.
cheers
Jacob
David C
In Memorium
Great pictures.
Shows how fussy the modern artist craftsman has become.
Love the sawing past shoulder lines. If we were paid on piece work, I bet we would all do this today.
Can't resist the temptation of mentioning that there is a lot on single lap dovetails and the importance of of a deep gauge/knife lines in my latest dvd on chisel use.
Also some banter on this subject on the Chris Schwarz blog
best wishes,
David Charlesworth
Shows how fussy the modern artist craftsman has become.
Love the sawing past shoulder lines. If we were paid on piece work, I bet we would all do this today.
Can't resist the temptation of mentioning that there is a lot on single lap dovetails and the importance of of a deep gauge/knife lines in my latest dvd on chisel use.
Also some banter on this subject on the Chris Schwarz blog
best wishes,
David Charlesworth
engineer one
Established Member
i agree nice pictures jacob, and thanks for showing them.
however i would remind every one that at the beginning i said that i was re-learning, and that i felt that the single dovetail is a very important skill to learn.
multipile dovetails are almost certainly stronger, and more attractive, however as jacob's pictures show, they can be pretty untidy in some ways too, because they are smaller, they allow for small errors on each.
the single however needs to be as perfect as possible otherwise it both will look awful, and not be very strong, certainly without the glue :?
in addition as referenced by dc, it is an important joint, for instance on chests of drawers, or tables where you use it for the top rail to allow movement front to back, but retain the sides etc.
the important thing for me is to create the ability in me to produce dovetails and then grow my skill width wise and number wise.
:roll:
paul :wink:
however i would remind every one that at the beginning i said that i was re-learning, and that i felt that the single dovetail is a very important skill to learn.
multipile dovetails are almost certainly stronger, and more attractive, however as jacob's pictures show, they can be pretty untidy in some ways too, because they are smaller, they allow for small errors on each.
the single however needs to be as perfect as possible otherwise it both will look awful, and not be very strong, certainly without the glue :?
in addition as referenced by dc, it is an important joint, for instance on chests of drawers, or tables where you use it for the top rail to allow movement front to back, but retain the sides etc.
the important thing for me is to create the ability in me to produce dovetails and then grow my skill width wise and number wise.
:roll:
paul :wink:
A
Anonymous
Guest
Had look at blog v interesting.David C":2d0uh42k said:
So waddya make of this then? These dovetails are to the drawers in this nice little old davenport which is much classier than the bits shown above
If you look at the lines they are deeply incised so;
You can see the sharp edge of the mark and a bruise to the side - correctly set into the offline side, but when you look closer its almost as though there is a very fine saw kerf, not a knife at all, which you can just see here:
So what fiendish tool made this mark?
The plot thickens.
Arr tes the work a' owd nick hissen :twisted:
cheers
Jacob
PS apologies for my excessive postings and snaps but I am experimenting with camera and communications therewith e.g. I've found out how to do closeups - max image size, careful focus, crop and enlarge.
PPS been away, had a stiff drink, answer floated up: the line was marked with an ordinary 1 bevel marking knife (the bruise etc) and then was made deeper with a very fine dovetail saw. S'obvious innit?
dunbarhamlin
Established Member
The first group of pics and talk of wood movement have given me pause.
The third draw side has a split - would this have been related to the dovetail expanding? And would choice of cut help guard against this, or difficult to guage as different species commonly used for front and sides? (Thinking if the front QS, less stress across the grain of the drawer side, but would the greater front to back movement be more significant to the tightness of the joint long term?)
(Have promised myself to do at least one dovetail a night for the foreseeable future - that way in thirty years time maybe I'll be cutting them like Jacob's)
Cheers
Steve
The third draw side has a split - would this have been related to the dovetail expanding? And would choice of cut help guard against this, or difficult to guage as different species commonly used for front and sides? (Thinking if the front QS, less stress across the grain of the drawer side, but would the greater front to back movement be more significant to the tightness of the joint long term?)
(Have promised myself to do at least one dovetail a night for the foreseeable future - that way in thirty years time maybe I'll be cutting them like Jacob's)
Cheers
Steve
A
Anonymous
Guest
It's probably just a bit of unseasoned wood. It's in an old but not high quality chest of drawers made with an uninteresting looking tropical hardwood.dunbarhamlin":bfqc9e8l said:
I wouldn't cut dovetails like mine if I were you as I got the spacing wrong. :roll: Its a piece I made some time ago and I hadn't done many - I still haven't done much furniture so far but I have plans!
cheers
Jacob
Some while back I asked about knife lines should they be left as seen or removed when the piece is finally dimensioned. For very accurate work for say a well made draw, one would have to plan to leave the line, or plan to remove it, by as some books suggest, make the draw sides slightly wider and hand plane to fit. I had a mixed response, but the feeling was leave no lines. Have views changed?
engineer one
Established Member
strange one newt, my personal understanding is that many of the "famous" authors are actually suggesting that you cut the pins and tails slightly longer than the final outside measurement of the drawer, then trim those back to the surface.
obviously therefore if you are only doing that, then you will leave the line, since the suggestion is only that you make things about 1-1.5mm oversize,
or in old money 1/32 or so.
of course also a lot depends upon whether you are using commercial drawer slides. or making wooden ones of some desription because it always used to be suggested that for your test drawers, you make them to fit a box, then to ensure a smooth piston action, slightly taper the sides, and ensure that the back is slightly smaller than the front, to allow the air out. :?
but so far, the view seems to be there is something to be said for showing how you made them.
paul :wink:
obviously therefore if you are only doing that, then you will leave the line, since the suggestion is only that you make things about 1-1.5mm oversize,
or in old money 1/32 or so.
of course also a lot depends upon whether you are using commercial drawer slides. or making wooden ones of some desription because it always used to be suggested that for your test drawers, you make them to fit a box, then to ensure a smooth piston action, slightly taper the sides, and ensure that the back is slightly smaller than the front, to allow the air out. :?
but so far, the view seems to be there is something to be said for showing how you made them.
paul :wink:
David C
In Memorium
I would not dream of leaving gauge marks on the outside of a modern exhibition piece, but feel that this is simply a choice which the craftsman will make according to his/her own views.
I do not think it is wrong to leave them.
Deep lines are very helpful for the joint cutting, but will require a huge amount of planing to remove.
If you don't want them, don't mark straight across the outside of the drawer sides, just where the timber will be removed. That's one of the main reasons for the tilted pin and filed cutout on my gauge modification. I can see both cutting edges of the modified 'pin' for easy starting and stopping in the right places.
best wishes,
David Charlesworth
I do not think it is wrong to leave them.
Deep lines are very helpful for the joint cutting, but will require a huge amount of planing to remove.
If you don't want them, don't mark straight across the outside of the drawer sides, just where the timber will be removed. That's one of the main reasons for the tilted pin and filed cutout on my gauge modification. I can see both cutting edges of the modified 'pin' for easy starting and stopping in the right places.
best wishes,
David Charlesworth
woodbloke
Established Member
I agree with Mr C, I very lightly cut the position of the shoulder line. The line is then more heavily cut when the tails and pins have been marked but only in those places where a chisel edge will eventually be placed, the very light line across the base of a tail for example is then easily removed in the final fitting process - Rob
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Anonymous
Guest
Er Paul not sure what you are saying but: the important line generally speaking is the inside one - like the scored ones in my snaps earlier. The ends of pins, and tails too where its not a lapped dovetail, and the ends of tenons, or styles and rails in a frame etc etc are almost always left over long and then carefully trimmed back when the glue has gone off - to give the impression that everything has been immaculately worked to the outside line, but it hasn't, it's just a trick of the trade.engineer one":2ddzzulx said:
Dovetails you might leave just a few mm over, tenons and wedges a bit more, ends of stiles an inch or so - also resists splitting when banging in a mortice and protects the end whilst work is in progress.
cheers
Jacob
David C
In Memorium
Dovetailing is a classic case of ask ten craftsmen and get twelve answers.
Remember the cover of FW where two eminent persons explained why they chose opposite routes.
i.e. Tails first or pins first for through dovetails.
David C
combined professional experience approx 80 years.
I think it was Becksvoort and Frid.
Remember the cover of FW where two eminent persons explained why they chose opposite routes.
i.e. Tails first or pins first for through dovetails.
David C
combined professional experience approx 80 years.
I think it was Becksvoort and Frid.
bugbear
Established Member
Mr_Grimsdale":3qutwyel said:
Not really. I can't see any purpose or benefit in deepening the line that way.
Can you explain?
BugBear
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Anonymous
Guest
What I thought was obvious (or at least highly likely) was that the line cut, which has both the appearance of a very fine saw cut and the appearance or a line cut with a knife, was in fact cut with these 2 instruments, not one exotic one, which was my first thought.bugbear":1co89sm0 said:
You can just see what I mean in the snap but it's more obvious to the eye.
Interestingly, the cut at the back of the drawer is a obviously a knife cut only, along a pencil line, which highlights the difference.
An argument for why this is done is in the D Schwarz blog as pointed to by DC (above) who added the comments.
Or here (a bit confusing that blog).
cheers
Jacob
I note that on the front cover of a J Krenov book (cabinet makers notebook) that Rob very kindly loaned me there is a drawer with not one but 2 quite deep deliberate lines, one on the base of the tails and the other about 1 or 2 mill further up. Interesting.
