next part of the learning curve, DOVETAILS

[engineer one]

ok so i confess i have not become proficient overnight at planing, but do need to move onto the next stage, since i want some more drawers for the unit, and decided that for the less tall drawers i would make a single tail dovetail for each corner.

so i can mark them out, and cut them, but

the question is how do you make the bit between the pins flat and level if it is wider than your chisel?? i don't mean across the wood, i mean side to side in side the joint?? seems from my limited experience this time that when you have to make two chisel lines across the bottom you end up with a kind of bump.

what are the preferred ways if you are producing solely by hand??

i know i can use a wider chisel, but what about getting in to the corners and thus needing finer edges??

first couple fit but are not too pretty :? , however they don't pull through :lol: :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[woodbloke]

Paul - there are a number of different approaches here. The important thing is to strike the shoulder line between the tails deeply with a sharp knife or cutting gauge....this gives a positive and precise location for chisel to sit in. A foolproof way (this is what Roert Ingham does) to ensure that the blade chops square from both sides of the joint is to prepare a piece of thickish stuff dead square and cramp to the timber on the knife line.....simply hold the chisel on the vertical face and tap down with a mallet. The chisel should be narrower than the pin width and so can be moved along a fraction to clean out each of the corners.
I don't do it this way as I pare by hand and undercut the surface slightly, again from both sides, so there is no danger of a bump in the middle of the pin surface and iIrc this is also the way that David C was taught to do D/T's.......the most important thing tho' is that knife line right at the beginning, just gives you a fighting chance of getting it right - Rob

 

[Chris Knight]

Paul,
Just to add to what Rob said, don't bash straight away into the knife line, the bevel of the chisel will force the chisel backwards across the line if there is too much waste to cut away. I leave cutting at the knifed line until there is no more than about 1 to 2 mm of wood to waste away.

As far as needing a fine side bevel is concerned, to get into the corners - now you understand what Alf (and occasionally me) bang on about when people describe a set of firmers with the corners knocked off as bevel edged!

 

[Anonymous]

The classic answer is of course "practice, practice"

cheers
Jacob

 

[Scrit]

Yes, and don't do what I did the first time I made some dovetails and cut the pins with a taper as well..... Well, I was only 11 at the time. :lol: These days I'd probably think that was rather neat :roll:

BTW I reckon the way to get a decent chisel is to take a couple of thin old chisels and grind them to the shape you want. I've still got mine somewhere, although it's not as though I do any dovetailing any more Well, not a lot

Scrit

 

[engineer one]

well jacob i am practicing that is why i am asking the questions :twisted:

so the advice is to use a knife mark, not let the chisel make it??

also do you strike the knife all along, or just where the open wood is going to be????

as for chisels, scrit those i have to play silly b*****s with thanks.
:roll:
i will re shape a couple of 4mm ones i have.

paul :wink:

 

[mr]

If you strike the knife all the way along you will be left with that knife line visible all the way along in the finished product which I have been told is the mark of fine hand made dovetails and which I think is plain ugly. Not that I'm about to suggest a different way.

Cheers Mike

 

[Scrit]

Strike the full line, otherwise how are you going to mark the pins?

I'm just wondering whether or not we'll see a Big Endian vs. Litle Endian argument, sorry discussion, here about whether one marks the tails from the pins, or vice versa......

Scrit

 

[Alf]

"bang on"? Moi?

Wot Rob and Chris said, apart from the banging on bit... I don't clamp my guide block to the work, preferring to use a smaller loose block. These pics I have handy might be more illustrative.



The line left behind is a funny one - some people hand cut and go to extreme lengths to only mark it in the waste while some people have been known to add one to a routed joint.

Anyway Scrit's mentioned You-Know-What so I'll see you on page seven... :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[mr]

Strike the full line, otherwise how are you going to mark the pins?

I'm just wondering whether or not we'll see a Big Endian vs. Litle Endian argument, sorry discussion, here about whether one marks the tails from the pins, or vice versa......

Scrit

You just started it
Cheers Mike

 

[Anonymous]

Strike the full line, otherwise how are you going to mark the pins?

I'm just wondering whether or not we'll see a Big Endian vs. Litle Endian argument, sorry discussion, here about whether one marks the tails from the pins, or vice versa......

Scrit

Well I know the answer to that one - its tails first of course :roll: .
The reason being that the old chaps would mark out by eye or rapid measurement, the rough position of the pins on the drawer side, then saw freehand by eye the sides of the tails. The marks for the pins would then be taken from the spaces between the tails.
You couldn't do it freehand the other way. Or could you? Perhaps I'm wrong. Hmm.

cheers
Jacob
PS "freehand" - any ETs reading this just take no notice, really, don't worry at all, just hold tight to your micrometers.
PPS no I'm right - doing it freehand tails first you drop your saw into the kerf for the second cut after making the first. That wouldn't work the other way so TAILS FIRST WINS.
"ETs" praps "METs" i.e. "militant engineering tendency"

 

[engineer one]

well so far i have done both just to get them to work properly :?

paul :wink:

 

[woodbloke]

Mr Grim is correct, tails first except if you're doing double lapped or secret mitred and then it's pins first - Rob

 

[Chris Knight]

Of course pins first versus tails first has been an argument for as long as their have been dovetails. I am happy to do them either way and marginally prefer pins first. this guy is an exponent of pins first and has published his method numerous times in various mags. http://frankklausz.com/homepage.html

 

[bugbear]

Mr Grim is correct, tails first except if you're doing double lapped or secret mitred and then it's pins first - Rob

Tails first is definitely easier.

But... some people propose doing pins first all the time, just to keep in practise for when pins first are unavoidable (the cases you mention).

BugBear

(edited due to saying the opposite of what I meant!!)

 

[Benchwayze]

i want some more drawers for the unit, and decided that for the less tall drawers i would make a single tail dovetail for each corner.

Ok Paul,

I shouldn't presume to advise a Master Cabinet Maker. However, may I suggest that a single dovetail doesn't look well? Not in my humble opinion at least. I prefer an odd number of tails. Yes I know 1 is an odd number, but two tails are better than one. Ask any dog!

Of course, if a drawer is so shallow it needs only one tail per corner, maybe it wants to be a tray?

(Jokin' honest!) ccasion5:
I am sure you have solved the problem by now.
So Be Lucky
John

 

[engineer one]

john, i am the one who should be humble my number of postings is the reason for my elevation, however.

you are right about the number of tails, but i thought in this instance, because of the rubbish wood i was using, and also as a practice, one is the way to start/

my motto is learn, and then expand the learning, so make a decent single dovetail, and that experience can then be extended to more.

when a drawer side is about 10-12 cms i think three pins would be too many, and not add to the strength.
in addition this is a learning experience, and the drawers are fitting inside the bottom of my worktable, the side that won't be seen by others, :? :lol: so decent shape rather than beauty is the important thing.
based on an extension slide, it means that the drawer will have little stress on the joints. :roll:

but thanks for the thought and the information

paul :wink:

 

[woodbloke]

Engineer One wrote:

when a drawer side is about 10-12 cms i think three pins would be too many

Tail and Pin spacing is a very subjective issue. In something like a drawer construction of say 10cm I would use 4 tails about 23mm wide at the top with thinnish pins and thicker half tails at the top and bottom. It all really depends on what sort of corner you're after, I was taught that tails ought to be about 25mm wide, this is OK for carcase work but I think a little too coarse for drawers....just a point of view - Rob

 

[Benchwayze]

Paul, Rob,

You are quite right Rob, but I can't work in cm's unless I refer to a rule! Bit of a dinosaur I suppose.

I went through the whole gamut of methods of spacing tails across a board. Now, I even try asymmetrically spacing when I feel adventurous. (I picked that up from Krenov I think...)

As for my preference for an odd number, it's just that my old woodwork teacher also preferred an odd number of pins, where possible.
And in any 'carcass', 4 x an odd number is an even number. I think. A mathemetician might prove me wrong of course!

Paul.... Don't be 'umble. Just be be brave and use a Leigh! [-X

(Ducks!)

We all find our mountains. Sometimes we never scale them! So is my experience anyhow.,

John

 

[Anonymous]

To help decide on size space here's a few quick drawer dovetail snaps from around the house all hand made and typical, last ones by me.
Pins are all small. Bigger pins similar size to tails usually found on hefty work such as ammo boxes, cisterns etc.

cheers
Jacob