New Laws vs Mail Order Tools

[Brandlin]

The only part of that response from the home office that gives me any hope is the bit that says it only applies to blades of more than 3 inches.

Assuming that means a cutting edge of 3 inches, then nearly all chisels and plane blades etc would be ok, and the impact for legitimate hobbyists with no business address is almost immediately nil.

 

[DTR]

The only part of that response from the home office that gives me any hope is the bit that says it only applies to blades of more than 3 inches.

Assuming that means a cutting edge of 3 inches, then nearly all chisels and plane blades etc would be ok, and the impact for legitimate hobbyists with no business address is almost immediately nil.

I suspect the bodgers may disagree; axes, drawshaves, froes etc.

Funnily enough, my work computer blocks this thread on the grounds of "offensive weapons".

 

[Brandlin]

The only part of that response from the home office that gives me any hope is the bit that says it only applies to blades of more than 3 inches.

Assuming that means a cutting edge of 3 inches, then nearly all chisels and plane blades etc would be ok, and the impact for legitimate hobbyists with no business address is almost immediately nil.

I suspect the bodgers may disagree; axes, drawshaves, froes etc.

Funnily enough, my work computer blocks this thread on the grounds of "offensive weapons".

True...

I was looking for some positivity it seemed less bad than feared... though in my defence i did say 'nearly all' and 'almost' ...

 

[LeeElms]

Still problems with planer/thicknessor blades (including sharpening services), and bandsaw blades ...

 

[Seiken]

What would stop anyone just making up a company name and get anything delivered to home, I can't see couriers checking whether the company is legitimate or is based at that address!?

I was thinking of this, it seems that you can register a company name for a few pounds,it doesn't have to trade so no taxman or accounts to deal with but you've got a company registered at your address.

 

[Brandlin]

What would stop anyone just making up a company name and get anything delivered to home, I can't see couriers checking whether the company is legitimate or is based at that address!?

I was thinking of this, it seems that you can register a company name for a few pounds,it doesn't have to trade so no taxman or accounts to deal with but you've got a company registered at your address.

Except for two reasons

1 we shouldn't have to do this to conduct our lawful activities
2 if it is so easy then it doesn't deter the very people the law is intended to prevent getting access to blades in the first place.

We should be arguing for better written, more effective legislation... not looking for loopholes to get us out of poorly written legislation.

The political debate about whether prohibition and restriction is the answer is not really the domain of this forum - am pretty sure we have all aspects from left to right here (and probably up and down).

What we all do deserve though is well written, understood and enacted laws.

 

[Seiken]

What would stop anyone just making up a company name and get anything delivered to home, I can't see couriers checking whether the company is legitimate or is based at that address!?

I was thinking of this, it seems that you can register a company name for a few pounds,it doesn't have to trade so no taxman or accounts to deal with but you've got a company registered at your address.

Except for two reasons

1 we shouldn't have to do this to conduct our lawful activities
2 if it is so easy then it doesn't deter the very people the law is intended to prevent getting access to blades in the first place.

We should be arguing for better written, more effective legislation... not looking for loopholes to get us out of poorly written legislation.

The political debate about whether prohibition and restriction is the answer is not really the domain of this forum - am pretty sure we have all aspects from left to right here (and probably up and down).

What we all do deserve though is well written, understood and enacted laws.

And I agree, I've signed the petition - response was rubbish; written to my MP - no response. We're dealing with a government more concerned with appearance than effective, workable legislation.

 

[Just4Fun]

Still problems with planer/thicknessor blades (including sharpening services), and bandsaw blades ...

If a bandsaw blade comes under this legislation then why wouldn't a tenon saw?

Assuming that a hobbyist with no company or business address wants to get a bladed item via mail order, what is the proposed method to do this legally if this legislation passes?

 

[Brandlin]

Assuming that a hobbyist with no company or business address wants to get a bladed item via mail order, what is the proposed method to do this legally if this legislation passes?

There currently isn't one.

hence this debate and the petition etc.

 

[t8hants]

There is an old thought that says "All Tory legislation is so sloppily written as to render it unworkable and all labour legislation so over detailed as to also render it unworkable."

Its interesting how the law abiding are constantly having their rights and privileges withdrawn or circumscribed and often suffer financial penalties way beyond any 'fine' a court of law would impose.

 

[Tasky]

Assuming that means a cutting edge of 3 inches, then nearly all chisels and plane blades etc would be ok

A plane blade is longer than three inches, even though it's the width that does the cutting.

Its interesting how the law abiding are constantly having their rights and privileges withdrawn or circumscribed

Easy solution - Join a gang!

 

[Brandlin]

Assuming that means a cutting edge of 3 inches, then nearly all chisels and plane blades etc would be ok

A plane blade is longer than three inches, even though it's the width that does the cutting.

Hence why i said 'assuming that means a cutting edge of 3 inches'.

 

[Tasky]

Hence why i said 'assuming that means a cutting edge of 3 inches'.

The law refers to 'bladed' articles, though. If it can be bent away from your favour, I'm sure it will be...

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I've had a reply from my MP's office with the reply they had from the minister concerned.
Basically it's a load of political waffle "we must be seen to be doing something" exercise, all they are doing is making mail order suppliers ascertain the age of the recipient - with no real clue or idea how anyone is actually to do it. :?

 

[skelph]

I got the following reply from my MP which includes evidence that he asked the appropriate question, however the final words of the Secretary of State's answer do not instill any confidence in the abilities of our government ministers.

Dear xxxxx,

Thank you for contacting me, I asked the Secretary of State directly and he assured me that defences would be in place for hobbies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrsVG7ATulU

Regards

Colin

Colin Clark MP

Member of Parliament for Gordon

House of Commons

London SW1A 0AA

 

[AndyT]

Four months or so later and this bill is still slowly progressing through the stages to become a law.
It was debated on Wednesday afternoon, and if there's nothing else on the telly you can watch the whole debate online, here

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/9 ... d9992c78b6

(or read the Hansard transcription here
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2 ... eaponsBill.)

I've watched a chunk of it (admittedly with the mouse hovering over the skip button, they do go on a bit) and would offer these notes, just in case the mainstream media is too preoccupied with other parliamentary business.

- There are lots of fine words - and I'm not saying that they are not well intentioned - along the lines of 'knives and acid are dangerous and have been used in too many attacks - so we need to do something to stop that. Too many children are carrying knives. They are already not allowed to buy them in shops so let's make it illegal for children to buy knives online. That will make the country safer.'

- Despite many amendments, there are still some areas where the bill seems to be worryingly badly drafted, and the MPs behind it don't seem to understand what effect the words in the bill will have. Despite some sensible points being made, there seems to be a huge lack of imagination to understand the range of legitimate bladed articles that are traded daily.

The Bill is defended by Victoria Atkins MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for the Home Department.

A few MPs do pitch in on behalf of their constituents to point out that the scope of the definition of a bladed article is too wide. Anna Turley, MP for Redcar, speaks up for an online seller of decorating materials who would be unable to sell wallpaper scrapers online, and is facing a £32,000 hit to his small business, which the Government is supposed to be supporting. Paul Blomfield, MP for Sheffield Central points out that the bill would allow online sale of a sword (under the exception for sporting goods) but not a Sheffield steak knife.

So will we see wider exceptions covering tools which have blades in them? I couldn't see anything to suggest that we will.
Will there be a sensible system for people over 18 to buy bladed articles online? No.

This is what Victoria Atkins had to say.

We are indeed introducing a blanket ban on the delivery of bladed products to homes, first because we know that test purchases online have not led to the sort of results that we have seen with retailers. We wanted to close that gap and make it clear to online retailers, some of which do not seem to understand that they currently are not allowed to sell bladed products to under-18s and should have robust measures in place to ensure that they do not. The Bill seeks to re-emphasise that, but we also want to ensure that the person picking up the knife has to go to a post office, delivery depot or local shop with such arrangements and show identification to establish that they are over 18. That is the purpose behind those measures.

So they seem to be proceeding in the hope that some procedure will magically pop up whereby you can order a plane iron from your favourite supplier, who delivers it to a Post Office, not to your home. You pop down there, show your passport or driving licence (yes, even if you are obviously far older than 18) and take away your parcel.

Not so easy if your Post Office has been closed or doesn't have space to store hundreds of parcels for weeks on end.
A bit awkward if your Axminster order is for a big heavy mortiser with a set of dangerous chisels.

Ms Atkins went on to say, in an attempt to reassure Anna Turley:

We are not banning the online sale of bladed products; we are making it clear that retailers have to conduct proper checks as to the age of the person to whom they are selling. They should be doing that at the moment anyway, and this legislation means that they will also have to package the items up as they do if they are selling online or at a distance. The point is that the package has to be labelled, and that it will then be kept at the post office or wherever before being picked up by a person with ID.

I'm no expert in parliamentary procedure, but I think this bill goes off to the House of Lords next, so there may still be a chance to inject some sanity, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I haven't read the whole thread, but this entire nonsense is predicated on the loony idea that anyone wanting to commit knife crime will buy a new item, in this case online. In reality, mostly, existing knives will be misused.

Surely, the issue they cannot overcome is that knives and edged tools are an essential part of civilized life.

There's a shocking story on the BBC site presently about a handgun that's been used so far in twelve (I think) shooting incidents in Birmingham. It's been identified by forensics, but police still haven't found it.

Of course weapons circulate in the criminal underworld. As with guns, so with knives, baseball bats, and so on.

You can also make excellent blades from vehicle leaf springs, or so I believe - should we be controlling those too, and/or grinders? And what do we do about people operating illicit forges?

This is truly ridiculous legislation. Yes, I shall be writing to my MP, but then he's pretty ridiculous too, so I'm not expecting much...

 

[AndyT]

Agreed.
One MP pointed out that young people who want knives sometimes steal them, which this bill would do nothing to prevent, but the debate moved on to other matters.

 

[Trevanion]

I actually saw somebody locally have some really nasty stab wounds in the neck after they were attacked with a pencil on a night out in Cardiff. I think they also needed to surgically remove pieces of pencil from all the wounds as well. Goes to show you can attack anyone with anything really.

At the end of the day, this law isn't going to stop them obtaining knives as all the kids will have to do is go into the kitchen drawer and pull out a real butcherer. If you want them to stop growing up to be robbers and murderers, then take them out of the environment that promotes it. A lot of the reason is that kids have nothing better to do so they get pulled into the underworld.

 

[Seiken]

I have been emailing my MP since July on this, below are the last couple of emails in the email trail I have. I think it clearly shows how little thought past a PR exercise has been into into this act. The first reply didn't even address tools but was just the PR line on how it was going to stop people getting weapons, from the other emails its clear they have not considered hobbyists at all and are just keeping their fingers crossed.

Sent: Tuesday, 21 August, 16:21
Subject: RE: Remove article 15 of the Offensive Weapons Bill (HC Bill 232)

Dear Mr XXX,

Thank you very much for your further email of 17 August regarding the Offensive Weapons Bill.

I have been assured by Ministers that the Bill will allow bladed products to be sent to a residential address where it is used as a business. This means that a self-employed person operating from their home would still be able to have items delivered. I welcome the fact that the prohibition is limited to bladed products that can cause serious injury by cutting.

The measures in the Bill will not apply to table knives, screwdrivers, folding knives with a blade less than three inches in length and encased razor blades.

From: XXX
Sent: 22 August 2018 16:00

Subject: Re: Remove article 15 of the Offensive Weapons Bill (HC Bill 232)

Dear Mr Gove,
Thank you for your further reply, you have addressed the issue of the self employed working from a residential address however in my original email I also raised the issue of the many thousands of hobbyists who rely on purchasing tools by post that are too specialist to be kept by high street shops. What provision has been considered to enable them to continue?

From: GOVE, Michael
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 4:57:36 PM
To:XXX
Subject: RE: Remove article 15 of the Offensive Weapons Bill (HC Bill 232)

Dear XXX,

Please accept my sincere apologies for the delay in my response to your email of 22 August.

I understand that the Bill will make it a criminal offence for any bladed product sold online to be sent to a residential premise or to a locker. A bladed product is any article that has a blade which is capable of causing serious injury to a person by cutting the skin.

I have been informed that a bladed product would therefore not include table knives, butter knives, disposable plastic knives or things like screwdrivers. A bladed product does not include encased razor blades or knives with a folding blade of less than 3 inches (e.g. a pocket knife).

A bladed product, however, might include bread knives, steak knives, cut throat razors, axes, swords, machete’s, some camping/bush-craft knives, some garden implements and DIY tools – anything that has a blade and is capable of causing serious injury.

It will be for the court to decide in any prosecution whether the item in question is a bladed article capable of causing serious injury.