Name this woodworking joint

[Woodypk]

Afternoon all,

I've a very simple question to ask and I'm sure many of you will know the answer. I've googled it but I just can't seem to see anything for sure. I'm relatively new to woodworking (started playing at it around 2019) so I've still tonnes to learn. This seams like one of those questions that you sometimes think about, never ask about and therefore never actually find the answer. A bit like when you meet someone, forget to ask their name and then have to find a sneaky way to find out without actually having to ask...

I want to know the name of a very simple woodworking joint and whether it comes under the category of one of the many types of mortise and tenon joints.

If you were to create a blind mortise in the face edge of a board/post and fully insert a "tenon" without actually reducing the height and width of the male stock to create any sort of shoulder to sit flush against the board/post face, would this be a mortise and tenon joint or named under some other type of joint? Think of it as a full height and full width tenon, maybe?

I've used this type of joint, along with blind and through mortise and tenon joints before, I just never know what to call it...

 

[Bingy man]

Are you talking about eg inserting a 50mm piece of timber into eg 100 mm therefore not reducing the 50 mm section in any way - I’m no expert on joints but it certainly sounds like a tenon of sorts or a type of housing joint - a picture/ photo will help others to help you out..

 

[Ed Weber]

If I understand you correctly, you're asking about a shoulderless tenon joint

 

[Yojevol]

I think this is what you are describing. I don't think it has a name because it's rarely used. I can only think of a farm gate construction:-

It has some serious shortcomings compared with a normal shouldered M&T.
The shoulder is normally the datum for the sizing of the final assembly. In this case you would be relying on the depth of the mortice
The M&T is basically a mechanical joint but is only reliable in 2 dimensions. Integrity for the 3rd dimension relies on some method of retaining the tenon in its socket. In the past a dowel through the joint would have been used especially in building construction. In furniture animal glue would have been used but, as we know from the way antique chairs have a tendency to collapse, its long term integrity is in doubt. Modern glues are much better.
The other purpose of the shoulders is to keep the rail at the correct angle to the stile; usually 90deg
Brian

Well that wasted an hour on a hot sticky afternoon!

 

[Jacob]

I think I'd just call it a socket, or a socket mortice? - into which something fits which isn't quite a tenon?
You can call it what you like. jointy mcjointface?

 

[johnnyb]

I always think of gallows brackets with mortice and tenon construction when visualising the strength of these things. it's the shoulder that gives the "doff".

 

[johnnyb]

I have seen joints where the wood is thicknessed to the mortice width. then 2 notched shoulders put on top and bottom. this would work much better.

 

[Woodypk]

View attachment 160936I think this is what you are describing. I don't think it has a name because it's rarely used. I can only think of a farm gate construction:-

Brian, this is the joint I'm talking about.

I'm also glad to know it doesn't have an official name, even if the reason is that it's not commonly used.

The reason I ask is because I've recently made some storage boxes on the CNC machine and used this type of joint. Because the CNC Is incredibly accurate, I'm not relying on a precisely cut shoulder to determine the length between the ends of the rail, this length is determined by the end of the rail it's self - no shoulder. This obviously relies on the mortice depth being cut precisely but again, CNC accuracy has this covered.

Thanks to all for the replies. I must say, if I had to pick one name to use for this joint going forward, it has to be "Jointy McJointface" or perhaps shoulder less tenon joint, if I'm trying to be posh...

Cheers all,
Tom

 

[nickds1]

Blind mortice?

 

[niall Y]

It is odd, but it doesn't appear in any of my old reference books,
. As @Yogevol notes it is used for field gates and it could easily be used for slatted headboards.
I suppose that one of it's other shortcomings - apart from lack of registration - is that it does rely in an a perfectly formed mortise, for the joint not to look bad, so more associated with machine made mortises.
As for a name - then it could be a form of 'loose tenon' or even a "double, bare-faced tenon"

 

[Adam W.]

A housing.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Barefaced tenon is the name I know it as. Should the distance between the morticed parts, assuming there are two opposite each other, be critical the depth of the mortices need to be precise as well as the length of the tenoned part because the distance between the morticed pieces is governed by the two ends of the tenoned part sitting tightly at the bottom of the mortices. For me the (fully) barefaced tenon is probably best employed only as a non-critical intermediate distance governing fill-in rail or slat in such as a gate or a bed headboard, as in the example of Yojevol's gate image, post 4.

As a side note there's also what I know as the single barefaced tenon, i.e., one wide face has a shoulder. I wouldn't say the nomenclature I use for this type of tenon is either definitive or universal, they're just the names I'm familiar with through the places I've trained and worked. Slainte.

 

[Woodypk]

As a side note there's also what I know as the single barefaced tenon, i.e., one wide face has a shoulder. I wouldn't say the nomenclature I use for this type of tenon is either definitive or universal, they're just the names I'm familiar with through the places I've trained and worked. Slainte.

I actually was going to use the single barefaced tenon for the original job.

Because the CNC does all cutting from above and on one face of the board (unless you flip the job over), it would have been easy to mill away the single bare face of the tenon to create a shoulder and have the single sided shoulder register against the face of the board where the mortise is made. In this instance, the shouldered side can face outward to give the cleanest looking joint from the front.

Ultimately, I decided against it because I can get just as nice a looking finish with the whole rail inserted into the mortice without being milled or cut into any sort of tenon due to having CNC level accurate mortises.


Tom

 

[Bristol_Rob]

This joint is in Charles Hayworths book:

 

[niall Y]

This joint is in Charles Hayworths book:
View attachment 161067
View attachment 161068

Ah............... good work, you managed to find a reference . I assume you mean 'Hayward' , rather than 'Hayworth'? If so, would be interested to know, in which of his books you found the reference .
Prompted by your post I have just discovered a picture and description in " Woodwork Joints", In this book he just seems to be calling it a "bare-faced" tenon which tallies with what @Sgian Dubh said earlier.

 

[dzj]

I made some louvred shutters recently with this kind of joint.

 

[Bristol_Rob]

Ah............... good work, you managed to find a reference . I assume you mean 'Hayward' , rather than 'Hayworth'? If so, would be interested to know, in which of his books you found the reference .
Prompted by your post I have just discovered a picture and description in " Woodwork Joints", In this book he just seems to be calling it a "bare-faced" tenon which tallies with what @Sgian Dubh said earlier.

Lost Art Press:

 

[HamsterJam]

It looks like a relative of the barefaced tenon joint - Used on thin stock when cutting shoulders on the face side of the tenon is not practical.
Edit - I see that is covered in the diagram above (see M)