Mortice & Tenon Size

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Hemsby

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About to construct a new garage door frame and am going to M/T the joints, the timber is 4x3 not decided if they will be through or stopped yet. Last time I did this type of joint was at School, with a chisel & mallet (hammer) , this time will be with a mortising machine :roll: .

Does the tenon ratio vary depending on the size of timber and the application that the joint will be subjected to :?:

What size tenon would be appropriate for this size timber :?:

Next project will be the new doors :lol:

Advice would be appreciated please
 
A tenon in a door frame is mostly for location and to prevent the jambs of the frame leaning in from the weight of heavy doors. I would use a 1/2" chisel. I think joinery shops tend to stick to this size for almost all joinery set ups.
 
RobinBHM":swxsj77z said:
A tenon in a door frame is mostly for location and to prevent the jambs of the frame leaning in from the weight of heavy doors. I would use a 1/2" chisel. I think joinery shops tend to stick to this size for almost all joinery set ups.

Thanks,

So it would be 1/2" on the 3" dimension what would you suggest for the length of the tenon on the 4" dim :?:
 
I'd have thought 3/4 at least or 1 inch ( half inch twice )

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I have read about the 1/3 ratio which would make my tenon about 1&3/8" x 1" but I was not sure if this varied with the application of the joint :?:
 
4x3" door frame I'd do a M&T, full width, through, between 5/8" and 1" depending on what kit you have got.
Keep it simple.
 
Frames are generally screwed so you need enough meat left on the shoulders so the screw will hold but not split out. Frames I'd say probably 1/4 is probably o.k

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What doors are they? If up and over, then the joint is not relevant. If side hung you may want a thick tenon to resist the inward force of the doors when shut.

1/3 thickness is usually recommended in books, but really it depends on application and as above, consider room for adequate screwing
 
never done bigger than 5/8" unless the moulding dictates a different size (irrelevant) the main reason is the mortice is usually offset, and a bit one could leave too little on the edge of the wood.

strength at that size and above comes from the fit of the joint
 
I would have thought that if your making a door frame out of 3" by 4" the 4" will have the rebate cut into it. A single mortice and tenon for up to c 3" should have a ration of 1 to 3, or for 3" thick wood, a tenon that is 1" thick. Above this dimension, the wood will be prone to twist if you use a single tenon. Indeed some would suggest that a single tenon at 3" offers too little resistance to twist and two should be used above 2.5".

Incidentally the recommended maximum length of a tenon to prevent weakening the timber too much is c 5~6 times 1/3 of the thickness of the wood to be tenoned. Any longer than this and two tenons in a line should be used linked By a haunch tenon.

I have just completed a 4" by 3 " door frame in oak. I used two tenons for every joint. You want to try and spread out the tenons to be close to the outside edges of the timber to reduce the amount of twist that can occur. This however needs to be considered with practicality. I always try to align one tenon with the edge of the rebate so, that the tenon starts at the rebate, this both makes it easier to cut, and also offers the maximum support to the rebate when the door is slammed closed. I usual use two 3/4" tenons in 4" wide wood. However, depending on the moulding your adding to the frame I adjust this to make life easy. So, they normally vary between 5/8 and 3/4.

Leave at least 2~3" at either end of the head and cill to produce good tight Mortices and tenon joints. Open Mortices are not as effective when trying to get good glue up. Don't bother wedging the tenons as when you cut off the ends of the head and cill the wedges will become ineffective and create a shear force on the glue which it's not designed and and can cause the joint to fail. The focus should be on making nicely fitting Mortice and tenons that done need wedges to make the tenons fit properly.
 
My comment wasn't relevant (the post was about door frames)....sorry
 
5/8" if there's a rebate. 1" if not (planted stops etc). Some serious overthinking going on above!
NB the horns are normally left on and built in. If removed (after gluing up etc) then a large dowel would be needed through the now open sided "bridle" joint.
 
Personally I don't bother with M&Ts on garage door frames. If the jambs are fixed properly, they are not needed. Just fit the head frame with a few dowels.
 
MMUK":2do121us said:
Personally I don't bother with M&Ts on garage door frames. If the jambs are fixed properly, they are not needed. Just fit the head frame with a few dowels.
6" nails easier.
 
Jacob":2xai7wj9 said:
MMUK":2xai7wj9 said:
Personally I don't bother with M&Ts on garage door frames. If the jambs are fixed properly, they are not needed. Just fit the head frame with a few dowels.
6" nails easier.


I don't use nails for anything even vaguely structural :wink:

About the only nails you will find in my workshop are veneer and panel pins :)
 
Jacob":2nrig2f5 said:
5/8" if there's a rebate. 1" if not (planted stops etc). Some serious overthinking going on above!
NB the horns are normally left on and built in. If removed (after gluing up etc) then a large dowel would be needed through the now open sided "bridle" joint.
Then when the head shrinks or expands a bit the dowel will either be a bit short or a bit long. Thats what the screws are for. The main problem is when people have joints that don't fit then sloppy tenons that you could park a car next to. People think using polyurethane glue gets over this but how many people have pushing there thumb in dried expanding foam- it moves. There's always new ideas and methods of not using cascamite for joining timber but for most hardwood applications I'd say it's the best. Im working on a job at the moment trying to rectify another joiners work. Pu glue was used, joints don't fit and there's movement everywhere between mortice and tenons- but there's no way on earth they ever fitted in the first place. Edge to edge oak cill joining with pu and the joints are opening up everywhere. Only ever had a few iroko joints open up using cascamite- that when I didn't use meths on the joints first.

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I appreciate that M&T are not necessary on the frame but I want to get some practice before I make the doors.

I have been experimenting on scrap so far but thought I may get a better idea if I were to make a couple of “useful” joints.

Thanks for all the suggestions & information.

Keith
 

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