Moldings on early furniture

[greg forster]

On furniture,1720-1820 period, were most hardwood moldings cut with complex molders or H/Rs or scratch stocks. City or rural shops?. I realize there will be more "educated guessing" than absolute certainties, but I would like to get a discussion going on this topic.

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Greg

Welcome to the forum.

I'm sorry that I can't help, but someone will be along soon.

Cheers
Neil

 

[MikeW]

Hi Greg--welcome to the forum!

My feeling is with the shear number of molding planes one still sees from that period, many were cut with them.

In general, moldings are hand cut the same way, using the same/similar tools today as then. And that would be with all three categories of tools you list. I think in part it is going to come down to the shop and what they had available.

For myself, I use all three depending on the size of the molding to make. For small, more delicate or curved sections of moldings, I use scratchstock. I also use them for cleaning up larger, more complex moldings, especially if there is a bit of tearout.

For moderately sized moldings, I use one of a few molding planes I have. But for yet larger profiles, the H&Rs come into their own--even if it is in conjunction with other profiled molders.

The couple books I have from about the same period are of larger, more known cabinet makers and a single tool seller. So their experience may not be the same for lesser known or rural makers. There is very little documentation I have ever heard about concerning makers in general as to the tools actually in use. The Gabriel inventory of the period, though, may well give an insight as to the volume of such tools sold.

This is a great topic--one dear to me. A great way to kick off what I hope are future postings from you.

Take care, Mike

 

[mel]

hi greg

welcome to the forum

cheers mel



neil you beat me to it :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

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[Colin C]

I would have to agree with Mike as I have done the same with mouldings I have had to copy.

 

[Roger]

All early furniture mouldings were cut by hand with Planes and Scratch Stock. The name escapes me for the process involved, but it was basically one worker (or family) specialised in one particular task, be it a certain moulding, cut, piece, turning that was then assembled into the whole.

Spindle Moulders and the power to run them wouldn't appear until the Industrial Revolution, although early belt powered saws driven by children were around earlier! The City 'shops' collected their parts from their hired workers and would rarely have mixed with Rural workers simply because of the distance and difficulty involved in travelling. The Rural folk tended to copy what was seen or heard about from the cities and produced quite rough versions of the originals.

Life and work was pretty tough and dirty back then for anyone involved in the actual making and construction of the pieces.

 

[Anonymous]

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[engineer one]

i would suggest that although the spindle moulder might be older than we think, the biggest problem would have been getting decent tooling materials. until the bessemer converter and cort, and also the siemens open hearth furnace, quantities of quality steel would not have been available, and also making flat plates would be pretty difficult.

paul :wink:

 

[AHoman]

Hi Greg--welcome to the forum!
In general, moldings are hand cut the same way, using the same/similar tools today as then. And that would be with all three categories of tools you list. I think in part it is going to come down to the shop and what they had available.

I wonder at what point cabinetmakers ceased to outfit themselves with hollows and rounds? It seems like H/Rs give you the widest set of possibilities, but at great expense. Specialized moulding planes lock you in to certain sizes and shapes. And the combination planes with moulding profiles (like #45 and #55) don't seem to have seen much use (compared to their wooden counterparts)!
A full or even half set of hollows and rounds must have represented a huge cost to anyone who didn't inherit them.

On a related note, can anyone share any tips regarding what to look for when looking at antique sets of hollows/rounds (users)?

-Andy

 

[bugbear]

Water power was in use from very early times so I wouldn't be surprised if the spindle is earlier than one would generally guess.

My "guess" would be that the spindle moulder did NOT predate Brunels machines for the navy.

On this basis, I would assert it likely that spindle moulders are later (I make no opinion on how MUCH later) than 1803.

BugBear

 

[engineer one]

one would have to say that the starting point for most machine tools other than a saw, are as follows,

1/ the production of the whitworth screw thread, and the ability to continue making standard parts, which then led to the proper and accurate lathes, since the lead screw could be standardised, giving known dimensions on movement.

2/ the development by marc brunel of the standardised rope block for the navy at chatham.

these two things i think showed that it was possible to make things on a production basis with accuracy which had not been as possible before.

however what many forget is that outside the navy yards, and subsequently the railway workshops, there was very little "mass production " until toward the end of the 19th century. many suggest that the production of the Srpingfield rifle in the american civil war was the real introduction of mass production with repeatable accuracy.

most machine tools tended to be made within the factory making things because they tended to be all encompassing units, for instance until 1923 the LNWR was the biggest joint stock company in the world, and made the whole locomotive, plus much of the track and other steel and iron work from Crewe works.

the mass production of furniture in the way we think was not started until the end of the 19th century so it would be difficult to see why a spindle moulder would be designed any earlier.

although sheraton and chippendale books were available in the 18th century, people outside the main cities tended to make their own versions with different scaling to prove their independence. my feeling is that it is likely that the spindle moulder was devised in the uk, although i have not seen all the tooling for the springfield rifle, and its handle may well have been moulded.

paul :wink:

paul :wink:

 

[bugbear]

although i have not seen all the tooling for the springfield rifle, and its handle may well have been moulded.

paul :wink:

That one's famous - it a rotary cutter, tracked by a metal (IIRC) master. A guide wheel runs on the master, while the cutter attacks the workpiece, linked by some kind of pantograph thingy.

A Mr Blanchard, IIRC.

BugBear

 

[engineer one]

so it seems that the murricans did not have a spindle moulder in 1868 :twisted: :twisted:

paul :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

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[Mittlefehldt]

Just to stir interest, the Ohio Tool Company in their 1910 catalogue showed 18 sizes of matched hollows and rounds, they were $9.45 US for a set of nine pairs ranging from 1/4 inch up to 1 1/4 inches in increments of 1/8.

They also made them larger up to two inches wide which would work a four inch circle. I believe the US currency at the time was in the range of five dollars to the pound.

I suspect to that in larger centres as someone else alluded to there were specialty shops that made architectual and cabinet millwork.

Country craftsman would do either what they had learned or what their customers wanted and the rural types tended to be somewhat conservative. Which is why I suspect that Empire style furniture was made well in to the 19th cemtury in rural eastern North America. I would think to that any rural craftsman would probably offer mouldings that could be worked with the tools available to them.

 

[jamrine]

I was just in Colonial Williamsburg in Virginia for the past few days and one thing that was mentioned there was that molding planes may have been much more prevalent with the joiners doing architectural work. Talking with another woodworker friend of mine who I traveled with, he said many of the molding planes he finds are more sized for architectural work. The Cabinet Shop at Williamsburg uses H&Rs primarily for their moldings. They do use a few molding planes, but they seem to be for the simpler moldings.

Bearing in mind that these are all theories, and probably a lot more could be learned from inventories of cabinets shops, and the fact that the practices certainly could have differed between England and the new continent, it was a very interesting discussion.

-Jamey