Millers Fall No1 Spokeshave
- Thread starter Alan Smith
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Alan Smith
Established Member
Thanks guys, need all the sympathy I can get! It's the work thing that's hacking me off most. Luckily I had only a little work booked this month, one of my clients has said quite happy to wait as long as it takes which is reassuring.
Alan
Alan
bugbear
Established Member
Coincidence department presents...
I got a Millers Falls no. 1 spokeshave yesterday, (with horrid user made replacement handles - length of broom stick I think).
Anyway, the blades fairly mangled at the moment.
Having cleaned of the garbage, I noted that the inner surface is rather poor.
Having puttered around the workshop, I arrived at the following solution for re-finishing the inner surface.
A piece of copper (water) pipe, diameter 1 1/8" was held endways in my face vise, and a piece of abrasive held on it. The curved blade self registers on the pipe, and the curve of the pipe polishes the inner surface nicely.
Now - does anybody have any information about what the geometry of the bevel (both inner and outer) is MEANT to be, or what works best?
BugBear
I got a Millers Falls no. 1 spokeshave yesterday, (with horrid user made replacement handles - length of broom stick I think).
Anyway, the blades fairly mangled at the moment.
Having cleaned of the garbage, I noted that the inner surface is rather poor.
Having puttered around the workshop, I arrived at the following solution for re-finishing the inner surface.
A piece of copper (water) pipe, diameter 1 1/8" was held endways in my face vise, and a piece of abrasive held on it. The curved blade self registers on the pipe, and the curve of the pipe polishes the inner surface nicely.
Now - does anybody have any information about what the geometry of the bevel (both inner and outer) is MEANT to be, or what works best?
BugBear
bugbear
Established Member
I have now ground and honed the outside bevel; I made a simple blade hold from plywood and a strip of metal.
Once the blade is fixed in the holder, sharpening can proceed along (fairly) conventional lines.
BugBear
Once the blade is fixed in the holder, sharpening can proceed along (fairly) conventional lines.
BugBear
Alan Smith
Established Member
Hi BB,
I'm pleased to see you have figured this out, nice jig by the way. I've still not been allowed out to the workshop yet but I think this weekend on the grounds that a little light work might be considered physiotherapy I might get back to my blade making exercise.
On the inside of the blade did you actually create a bevel or have you just polished? Any thoughts on what your external bevel angle is? hard to describe this I suppose it must be an angle relative to a tangent line really.
By the way I found a nice picture in Garret Hacks planes book which clearly shows the bevel.
Alan
I'm pleased to see you have figured this out, nice jig by the way. I've still not been allowed out to the workshop yet but I think this weekend on the grounds that a little light work might be considered physiotherapy I might get back to my blade making exercise.
On the inside of the blade did you actually create a bevel or have you just polished? Any thoughts on what your external bevel angle is? hard to describe this I suppose it must be an angle relative to a tangent line really.
By the way I found a nice picture in Garret Hacks planes book which clearly shows the bevel.
Alan
jonbikebod
Established Member
BB,
That jig looks a nice simple holding solution for bevel grinding.
As far as bevel geometry goes, I would suggest you go easy on the inner surface. The reason I say that is mine appeared to only ever have been sharpened this way (it is much easier). Although reasonably sharp, when I got it, it wouldn’t take a shaving at all. That is, as the blade was rotated to open the mouth, it didn’t cut at all and then suddenly took out huge chunks; nothing in between. Like a plane with a non-flat sole only worse.
The problem seemed to be that in removing metal from the inside, the main bevel got shorter. As this bevel is also in effect the rear section of the sole, this messed up the cutting dynamic. It would also alter the effective pitch which would have ended up more of a scrape.
Honing the inside is essentially applying a back-bevel and with all back-bevels, removing them requires a heck of a lot of metal removing from the main bevel. In the case of a #1 it also stops the blade from ‘bedding’ with the body which would eventually make it more chatter prone.
It is almost impossible to specify blade geometry is as there is no handy datum. The angle of the main bevel is quite critical though. The way I did it was simply offering the blade up to the shave. If the bevel is too obtuse, the trailing edge of the bevel will rub and stop the leading edge from cutting; lengthening the bevel progressively - generating an appropriate clearance angle - until the shave cuts with a fine mouth, did the trick.
With my blade, so much metal has been removed from the inside, there wouldn’t be much blade left if I completely removed the inner bevel.
Alan, that was why I suggested a collaborative effort to make some more. I have now got some 22 mm silver steel stock so when I get a chance I will be trying out the Bugbear/Charlesworth lapping to size idea inside the cylinder (‘just love the collective creativity of this forum). I suspect I would only then need to remove the wire edge from the inside and no more.
I hope this helps,
Jon.
That jig looks a nice simple holding solution for bevel grinding.
As far as bevel geometry goes, I would suggest you go easy on the inner surface. The reason I say that is mine appeared to only ever have been sharpened this way (it is much easier). Although reasonably sharp, when I got it, it wouldn’t take a shaving at all. That is, as the blade was rotated to open the mouth, it didn’t cut at all and then suddenly took out huge chunks; nothing in between. Like a plane with a non-flat sole only worse.
The problem seemed to be that in removing metal from the inside, the main bevel got shorter. As this bevel is also in effect the rear section of the sole, this messed up the cutting dynamic. It would also alter the effective pitch which would have ended up more of a scrape.
Honing the inside is essentially applying a back-bevel and with all back-bevels, removing them requires a heck of a lot of metal removing from the main bevel. In the case of a #1 it also stops the blade from ‘bedding’ with the body which would eventually make it more chatter prone.
It is almost impossible to specify blade geometry is as there is no handy datum. The angle of the main bevel is quite critical though. The way I did it was simply offering the blade up to the shave. If the bevel is too obtuse, the trailing edge of the bevel will rub and stop the leading edge from cutting; lengthening the bevel progressively - generating an appropriate clearance angle - until the shave cuts with a fine mouth, did the trick.
With my blade, so much metal has been removed from the inside, there wouldn’t be much blade left if I completely removed the inner bevel.
Alan, that was why I suggested a collaborative effort to make some more. I have now got some 22 mm silver steel stock so when I get a chance I will be trying out the Bugbear/Charlesworth lapping to size idea inside the cylinder (‘just love the collective creativity of this forum). I suspect I would only then need to remove the wire edge from the inside and no more.
I hope this helps,
Jon.
Alan Smith
Established Member
Jon,
I'm perfectly happy still to get involved with your blade making effort. I think I'll experiment on hardening and tempering my own first before risking any of yours. Regarding the tempering aspect one good thing is that we have just recently got a new electric oven for the kitchen. So what you say. Well this has a digitally controlled oven and goes to ridiculously high (for cooking) temperatures. Should make the tempering a breeze!! Is there a fingers crossed emoticon?
Which part of Kent you in Jon? I'm often working over Maidstone/Ashford and Dover.
I'm perfectly happy still to get involved with your blade making effort. I think I'll experiment on hardening and tempering my own first before risking any of yours. Regarding the tempering aspect one good thing is that we have just recently got a new electric oven for the kitchen. So what you say. Well this has a digitally controlled oven and goes to ridiculously high (for cooking) temperatures. Should make the tempering a breeze!! Is there a fingers crossed emoticon?
Which part of Kent you in Jon? I'm often working over Maidstone/Ashford and Dover.
jonbikebod
Established Member
That is a very kind offer Alan, but don’t hold your breath, I haven’t managed to get much time in the workshop recently.
It was more achieving the temperature for hardening that is probably beyond my propane torch. I have been intending building a small forge inspired by the one Philly (of this Parish) made and describes on his blog. The digitally controlled, high temperature oven sounds fascinating but I was thinking of about 200ºC for tempering which my oven should do. Certainly a simpler proposition than running the colours on something that shape….
I am in Orpington which is just inside the M 25 (bottom right-hand corner). If you stray this close to the metropolis, give me a yell. I work shifts so it is a bit pot luck.
Jon.
It was more achieving the temperature for hardening that is probably beyond my propane torch. I have been intending building a small forge inspired by the one Philly (of this Parish) made and describes on his blog. The digitally controlled, high temperature oven sounds fascinating but I was thinking of about 200ºC for tempering which my oven should do. Certainly a simpler proposition than running the colours on something that shape….
I am in Orpington which is just inside the M 25 (bottom right-hand corner). If you stray this close to the metropolis, give me a yell. I work shifts so it is a bit pot luck.
Jon.
bugbear
Established Member
Alan Smith":tpkikzwx said:
There was already and extensive inner bevel, which I have now made uniform and polished.
Wouldn't even know how to specify the damn thing
BugBear
Alan Smith
Established Member
Well, got it done at last. Looks OK so far, possibly a little distortion when hardening but it sits nice and positively on the spokeshave body. Now I have to build a sharpening jig like Bugbear's. Sorry can't do a photo as Mrs S has got the camera.
Alan Smith
Established Member
Talk about speaking too soon!! Having tempered the blade I built a copy of Bugbear's sharpening jig and put on a rough bevel. Stuck it on the spokeshave and it worked, cut beautifully long and end grain. The bevel I had ground was a bit wobbly so wanting to get it right took it back to the jig. Big mistake! Have a nice straight shiny bevel but will it cut? Like 'ell it will. Have tried lenghthening bevel, putting in a short internal bevel but I can't get it to work. Best thing to do in a situation like this is pack it away for another day but meantime anyone got a piccy of what the bevel(s) should look like? Please!!
Alan
Alan
jonbikebod
Established Member
Alan,
Chris (Waterhead37) posted a link to his photos earlier.
I created a single bevel on the Tormek and then found it quite easy to balance the blade on that bevel and honed it on wet & dry. If you set the blade as Chris has in his photos and then offer up a straight edge to the ‘mouth’ area it should be pretty easy to see where metal needs to be removed to allow it to cut. A convex bevel will do this as well as the bevel being too short (the trailing edge of the bevel rubs before the cutting edge).
Then again, a beer or two and a good night’s sleep will probably work wonders as well…
Jon.
Chris (Waterhead37) posted a link to his photos earlier.
I created a single bevel on the Tormek and then found it quite easy to balance the blade on that bevel and honed it on wet & dry. If you set the blade as Chris has in his photos and then offer up a straight edge to the ‘mouth’ area it should be pretty easy to see where metal needs to be removed to allow it to cut. A convex bevel will do this as well as the bevel being too short (the trailing edge of the bevel rubs before the cutting edge).
Then again, a beer or two and a good night’s sleep will probably work wonders as well…
Jon.
bugbear
Established Member
Alan Smith":8lo2k8ju said:
I think you may be the first to ever copy my jig! Most people find it a "jig too far" (quite reasonably so...)
I have been receiving some information "in another place", which may help you.
http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php? ... =1#message
BugBear
Alan Smith
Established Member
Hi BB, thanks for that pointer. So looks like really long outside bevel and nothing inside.
Your jig by the way I put a couple of wheels on the opposite end and can whizz it up on down on a sheet of wet and dry.
Your jig by the way I put a couple of wheels on the opposite end and can whizz it up on down on a sheet of wet and dry.
Alan Smith
Established Member
Right I think I have sussed out where I'm going wrong. I tried grinding fresh bevels repeatedly today but found that with each new bevel the situation was getting worse.
I've got the bevel shape right now, I'm sure of that however the problem i'm encountering is due to distortion of the blade that presumably occurred at hardening. As each new bevel is ground and therefore approaching the middle of the blade the radius of the blade is getting tighter and tighter so the bevel of the blade which is tangential to the blade is not parallel to the tangent of the shave body, it dips below the circumference of the shave body.
The other problem I've found is that I've made the blade too wide circumferentially and shavings were not escaping properly.
So it looks as if it is back to square one albeit with a little more knowledge. I'd completely drawn the temper of the blade anyway by repeated grinding but at least I know what I'm doing now.
I've got the bevel shape right now, I'm sure of that however the problem i'm encountering is due to distortion of the blade that presumably occurred at hardening. As each new bevel is ground and therefore approaching the middle of the blade the radius of the blade is getting tighter and tighter so the bevel of the blade which is tangential to the blade is not parallel to the tangent of the shave body, it dips below the circumference of the shave body.
The other problem I've found is that I've made the blade too wide circumferentially and shavings were not escaping properly.
So it looks as if it is back to square one albeit with a little more knowledge. I'd completely drawn the temper of the blade anyway by repeated grinding but at least I know what I'm doing now.
Alan Smith
Established Member
Thanks for the photos Pete, I'm certainly getting bevels like that so looks as if I'm going to have to look harder at keeping the correct blade radius.
bugbear
Established Member
Racers":1hzujpqo said:
Thanks for that Pete; most helpful.
Sadly, my blade had an extensive inner bevel when purchased.
BugBear
