Mid range tenon saw

[MarkB]

I'm going to embark on some chair making for my next project which is going to involve some mortice and tenon making skill improving.

I've previously had mixed results by using my router table for cutting tenons, but I really want to make them properly by hand. Now my cheap and blunt DIY tenon saw isn't going help me so I want to invest in a good tenon saw... I'm the first to say that whenever I've purchased a quality tool I've always wondered why I've managed with cheap rubbish before. So some tool buying advise is needed!

- Lie-Neilsen look like the best, but they are £150+. Also looks like I would need a crosscut and a ripsaw version which would need a £300+ investment...
- Veritas look okay too, but they are still £110 ish and also come in cross and rip cut options so I'd need both coming to another scary £220.

Hmmm I'm going to need some serious justification to spend this sadly, so are there any worthwhile mid-ranged options which will be nice to use?

- What about a Footprint 256 10" 14tpi for example which comes in about about £50. Will this cross and rip cut for tenon work?

Is this or any other mid-ranged tenon saws worth considering?

Thanks

Mark

 

[Peter Sefton]

Hi Mark

Just checking out our prices which are due for an update but the Veritas should be a lot cheaper than you have mentioned. I would suggest Veritas Small Cross Cut Saw - 16 TPI and the Veritas Rip Cut Carcass Saw - 12 TPI this will set you back about £123 for the pair.

If you are looking for a more heavy weight saw then a pair of Sheffield made Dorchester's will come in just under £200 or one other option would be to go for the Pear handled Pax 1776 13 TPI Rip saw at just under £125, with this you would't need to get a cross cut as it cuts so cleanly.

If you need any guidance then feel free to email me or call us at the tool shop.

Cheers Peter

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

For the rip saw it is worth considering an ebay adventure and a file (probably a tenner for saw and a new file, bahcos are under a tenner. Filing a rip pattern is quite easy even on a fine toothed saw. It doesn't really matter whether the teeth are currently filed for rip or crosscut it only takes 5 or ten minutes to file the teeth so they will cut fantastically. You may well need an eclipse style saw set as well, these can also be bought cheaply on ebay. Filing cross cut teeth on a fine saw can be trickier as you have to do every other tooth from each side, I need my reading glasses for this and I still sometimes skip one, the less tpi the saw is the easier it is to do.
For a clear explanation of rip and cross filing patterns check out Mathew from Workshop Heaven on youtube. For the easiest explanation of a progresive rip pattern that will also crosscut check out Paul Sellers (also on youtube). This has the advantage of you only needing one saw (for now).

I would avoid spending big bucks till you have learnt to sharpen saws as this is something you will need to learn just as much with a lie nielsen as with an old saw, they all go blunt. I don't have a premium saw and one day may invest, but I am more than happy with the saws I have. As with planes a sharp vintage saw is a lot more use than a blunt premium saw


Hope this helps, Paddy

 

[Jacob]

Loadsa saws on ebay from a fiver up. Can be exceptionally good value and good for a beginner to practice sharpening (or have them sharpened by your local saw man). Footprint are good.
The expensive new ones don't really give you much for the money - more cosmetic than anything. They are simple devices and only as good as the last sharpening.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Just to clarify I meant a bahco file not one of their disposable saws.
Paddy

 

[PAC1]

Have a look at the British saws at Thomas Flinn

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Most chair tenons are quite small; something like a dovetail saw (say 10" long, 14tpi rip) would make a decent job of such work. You'd only need the one saw, because as Peter Sefton said above, small-toothed rip cut saws will cross-cut quite cleanly, especially if you knife-line the tenon shoulders quite deeply to sever the surface fibres. It's also worth bearing in mind the chisel-vee trick - make a vertical chisel cut on the shoulder line about 1mm or less deep, and run a sloping chisel cut into this in the waste, to leave a little vee-notch in which you start the saw. The chisel leaves a very clean cut right on the shoulder line, so any 'rag' from the saw is negated.

Real tenon saws tend to be much bigger, and were especially so back in pre-machine days. The saw in Benjamin Seaton's chest (dated 1797) is 19" long and 10tpi. I have a more recent Robert Sorby example that's 16" and 8tpi. The main duty for these was the tenons on full size doors and the like. Smaller examples called 'sash saws' (about 14" 10tpi) were used by joiners making the smaller tenons on sash windows, and some cabinetmakers had saws about that size for the larger (larger in cabinet terms, that is) tenons they encountered. For the small tenons, they used a small saw - such as a dovetail or carcass saw.

Buying from Ebay can be a bit hit and miss. I've had a few saws from this source, and about 50% have bent blades. The problem is that most sellers don't really know that much about tools, so asking them if the blade is straight may get a positive answer, only to find that whilst it looks straightish, it isn't. That said, it's a good way to pick up bargains if you're prepared to buy two or three to get a one good 'un. The advice to have a go at sharpening your own saws is good, though. It's far better to use a sharp saw than struggle on with a dull one because you can't tickle it up.

 

[Biliphuster]

Thomas Flinn saws are worth a look. Their entry level, no frills saws cost about the same as a Veritas but will have much heavier spines which may be your preference. This beech handled model will do everything you need if you buy the 12 or 14 inch rip version for example. The more expensive tenon saws they offer are nearly the same but for the fancier handles and the hand touch up on the teeth, they do look awfully pretty though.

 

[undergroundhunter]

I have never needed a crosscut saw yet, I just use a rip tenon saw around 11ppi. Works for me and saves on duplicating saws.

Matt

 

[Peter Sefton]

Thomas Flinn saws are worth a look. Their entry level, no frills saws cost about the same as a Veritas but will have much heavier spines which may be your preference. This beech handled model will do everything you need if you buy the 12 or 14 inch rip version for example. The more expensive tenon saws they offer are nearly the same but for the fancier handles and the hand touch up on the teeth, they do look awfully pretty though.

We are selling the Lynx you have sign posted here on special offer at the moment, they are usually the same sort of price as the Vertias but don't look as sexy. The lynx is a good workhorse but not the same quality as the more expensive saws from the same stable. I do not only mean the looks but the quality of cut and feel are better with the hand filed saws such as the Dorchester or Pax.

Cheers Peter

 

[Biliphuster]

That's interesting Peter, I was under the impression that the saws all used the same plates and spines? Is there a difference after the first home sharpening?

Always nice to have insider knowledge on these things as it can be hard to tell when just picking one up.

 

[Peter Sefton]

The Lynx is machine made, the Dorchester is hand filed and the Pax is hand filed by Christian Ellis with a fresh file every time.

My students have the Lynx and Veritas in their tool box's and I have the Dorchester and Pax in mine, when you use them along side each other the difference is noticeable. Not only for me but the students that use them as well, even new saw users can feel the difference.

Cheers Peter

 

[MarkB]

Thank you all for the feedback. I'm getting a much better idea of what I need and have picked up some good info from sharpening videos online.

I think that given what I'm wanting to achieve (small tenons for chairs) it's looking like I should be getting a finer 13tpi or less rip saw which will also cross cut too. It also means that I only need one saw which is better for my pocket too and also gives me scope to get a better one. I'm now split between Lynx, Dorchester and Pax!

Also from what I've seen sharpening rip saws is easier. I'm also tempted to pick up an old saw from eBay to practice my sharpening skills as I wouldn't want to ruin a Pax.

Mark

 

[undergroundhunter]

I have only ever bought one new saw the rest have been ebay/boot sale finds. The one saw I did buy new was a 10" 15tpi PAX 1776, I use it for dovetails, the only negative as I have mentioned in another thread is I think the handle is huge (my hands are like coal shovels), so I would highly recommend handling the saws before you buy if at all possible.

Matt

 

[deema]

There are a few things that make a real difference between various saws IMO
The weight of the saw needs to be linked to the type of wood you normally use. For very thin stuff you need a lighter saw, hence gentlemens saws. For dovetails and general cabinet making the type of tenons being cut does not need a heavy brass backed tennon saw. These come into their own when you are for instance Tenoning the bottom rail of a door.

The better the steel, the better edge retention, unless you go for a hardend saw which is disposable (Ok for DIY use but nor for making furniture) The better quality saws have better edge retention.

The handle is all about comfort and creating the right sawing stance. This is a very personal thing and in the 'good old days' all joiners wood expect to fettle a saw handle to suit the hand shape / style of sawing.

The biggest differential is the manner in which the saw is sharpened. An expert sharpening a hand saw can make a complete 'dog' into the most wonderful tool you will ever have. A badly sharpened top end saw is equally a complete dog.

I would suggest you buy a top end saw to experience what a properly sharpened saw should feel like. Buying from Peter would be an ideal way to getting the right saw for you. Equally Peter will be able to point you to having the saw re sharpened when it becomes necessary if you haven't mastered the technique.

If you decide its not for you can can sell a top end saw on an auction site and get circa 80~85% of your money back. Which is roughly the same amount of loss as buying a cheap hard point saw from one of the DIY sheds.