Metric or imperial - tempted to go retro

[beech1948]

Age 66.

Left school in 1966, left Uni in 1969.

My workshop is entirely metric for simplicity. I have replaced measuring units on most older kit for metric scales.

I miss the mental agility needed to convert imperial measurements into a combined number eg 12 and 3/8 + 3 and 27/64.

I hate people who use centimeters. Absolutely the spawn of the devil and cause many errors.

I always create a full size drawing and a set of story sticks for each project...yes it can be a bit tedious but the drawing usually helps sort out jointing issues, grain direction issues, fitting issues, wood movement and a few others. Once done then there is little need for measurement except from the story stick. Craftsmanship then becomes the accuracy of cutting and fitting the measuring is not a part of this as it has already been done and checked.

Just for amusement though I still estimate peoples height in imperial, I understand a lb better than a Kg, I think in miles and not kilometers but the smaller stuff is now all metric.

Al

 

[Racers]

+1 on centimetres they are for kids in infant school.

I do the dual measurement thing, some things are easier to understand in feet and miles, but millimetres and meters for making stuff.

Peter

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Centilitres are just as bad. Is there anything that ever gets measured in centigrammes? :lol:

 

[Ali]

Born in 1982, I don't understand Imperial. Never needed to learn it and won't. All modern fixings and fasteners are metric too so prefer to keep it that way.

Metric tools have greater second hand value than imperial tools too.

 

[sdjp]

Also cm are not an SI unit if I recall correctly and certainly cause me more confusion than anything else.

Well … that depends on what you mean by 'SI unit'! Let me grab my Hat of Pedantry (+2), and I'll explain.

There is a distinction to be made between a Unit and a Prefix. Even then, one can subdivide the Units into the Base Units, and Derived Units.

The Base units are the fundamental things; Seconds, Joules, Amps, Kilogrammes [0] and Metres.

Derived units are things like Newtons, for force, (which is really kg⋅m⋅s−2). There are few commonly used, metric-type units that aren't strictly a SI derived unit - light years as a distance measurement for example.

On top of those are various Prefixes, which are used to scale the unit to some appropriate level. Here's a list, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_pre ... I_prefixes which includes the date of ratification by CGPM. Note that centi is an agreed prefix, and has been since 1795.

Hence, centi-metres is, indeed, a valid SI term - being a recognised unit (indeed, a base one) with a recognised prefix.

I think the uncertainty arises because centi is not one of the 'power of three' groupings, often called 'engineering prefixes', that are the more commonly used subset (kilo, Mega, Giga, Tera, Peta, Exa etc).

I'm so used to dealing with all sorts of units [1], that metric doesn't pose any problems for me, although all my tooling is in metric sizes, save for vintage tools, and those aren't used in high precision cases (e.g. wide of a plane, length of a saw - those just arn't a critical size).

If I add in my Feather of Sillyness (+3) to the Hat, then I should note that just being metric doesn't have to mean having boring measurement standards. I'm getting quite tempted to make a plane with an attoparsec wide cutter (of 100 zeptoparsec thickness, of course). Anyway, that's my millifortnight of tea break used up, back to work for me.

[0] The ugly wart in the system - the defined unit in SI is actually a kilogramme, not a gramme. It is hoped to be able to move that away from a 'standard mass', to some more reliable measured value at some point. This was done for metres, which are now linked to the second via the speed of light. The second is defined in terms of 'The duration of 9192631770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom'.

[1] The 'inverse femtobarn' as a unit of brightness just about takes the biscuit on that one.

 

[GLFaria]

Now that's a fine explanation, even if one must go and grab a dictionnary before reading it :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[dickm]

As a very-soon-to-be septuagenarian, I was entirely taught in imperial units in primary school, then moved on to metric for O and A-level science, so should be able to think in both. But do have difficulties thinking about lengths between 10 and 300 mm. Millimetres are too small, and metres too big, so can understand why some folk like to have centimetres :evil: Much happier with mm for lengths of under an inch(!) and can cope with metres when it's yards..............

And while I'm at it, can anyone tell me why/when kilometres have become kill-ommeters in speech? Nobody talks about kill - oggrams

 

[pcb1962]

are there any day to day tools or accessories that now only work in metric

Yes, the Domino is all metric, not that that makes the slightest bit of difference in use, just that dominos aren't 1/4 inch or 3/8 inch, they're 5mm, 6mm, 8mm etc, and if you want to put one half way down the edge of a piece of 3/4 inch ply you'll need to know that that's 9 or 9.5mm on the scale, because there's no marking for 3/8". I've enjoyed watching Festool force Americans to get to grips with millimeters if they want to use tools such as the parallel guides which are marked in metric only. The only concession I know of that they've made to the US market is the stick-on 'inches' strip you can get for the TS55 height adjuster.

 

[RobinBHM]

Regarding the OP's question, Athough tools such as router bits etc may be imperial, it does not mean there is a need to use imperial measurements to mark out or design a project.

As most of the replies suggest, it is much easier to stick with metric for all measuring. That doesnt mean you cant use, for example, a 1/2" mortice chisel or router bit though.

I must admit to ordering timber in imperial, somehow it seems easier to ask for 1 1/2" x 6" 10 @ 3.0metres
If you wanted to be really American imperial, that becomes 6/4 lumber....

 

[woodfarmer]

Metric weights and measures have never been adopted by anyone willingly. This mathematical dogma has always been forced on its populations by governments, never adopted willingly. When France tried to go metric over a hundred years ago they had to make use of dividing the metre to make "pieds" (feet) by three illegal. The reason is metric weights and measurements are not natural sizes nor do they fit in with nature.
Things people have need to be easily dividable into single digits. Using base 10 is not conducive to this as the only digits you can get are 2 and 5. Virtually all European and Aryan languages have a single word for 11 and 12. Having dozens and 12 pence to the shilling make perfect sense. Although it did complicate the manufacture of early mechanical adding machines. The old integrated imperial system worked. You can's navigate in metric.. because neither time, angles (degrees minutes and seconds) or latitude and longitude are related to metric amounts. You cannot pack things easily in metric, eg a box of ten items the same just does not fit a sensible dimensioned box. It is no wonder in France they still use dozens, scores and pack their 10 packs of eggs with two extra free. A box of wine, 6 bottles is a UK gallon and anyway why would they use 70 or 75 cl as a standard size?? because a liter is too big. hence the use of pints.

When you have something specified in a unit, you expect the size to be accurate to one unit, but wood specified in millimetres is often several units of measurement wrong. This is because the unit is too small for natural usage.

I will go metric When the French give up their dozens (douzaines) and scores (20).

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Do you feel better for that Woody

 

[Mark A]

Born in 1982, I don't understand Imperial. Never needed to learn it and won't. All modern fixings and fasteners are metric too so prefer to keep it that way.

Metric tools have greater second hand value than imperial tools too.

I was born in 1992 and was exclusively taught metric in school. However, I much prefer to think and work in imperial!

Saying that, if I'm working with something with metric dimensions, such as 5x50mm gauge plate, then all my measurements and calculations will be in metric also.

 

[pcb1962]

Metric weights and measures have never been adopted by anyone willingly.

Not true.
I was born in 1962, so brought up on feet and inches, pounds and ounces.
For the past 30 years I have been 1.87m tall and weigh about 97 kilos. I don't even know what that is in stones.
Archaic units are all but eradicated from my life and my workshop and that's how I like it.

 

[paultnl]

Beware U.S. measurements are not imperial. Feet and inches are the same but if you start comparing volume or liquid measurements it can be a nightmare. A friend once nearly made a fatal mistake when calculating the range of an aircraft fuelled with a set number of gallons.

 

[deema]

The Industrial Age was started with the imperial system, the mightiest navy was designed and built on the imperial system, two world wars were fought and won with the imperial system. The jet engine was invented using the imperial system, and computer was invented with the imperial system, space and the nuclear industry were born from Imperial units.

Most people find multiplying by 2 to find the centre easier than dividing by 2. I.e. An 1/8 is half of a 1/4. A clock still has 12 hours, there are still 60 seconds in a minute, and 24 hours in a day.

And we all still go for a pint to relax.

I feel a warm comfort from knowing that the British system built the modern world using imperial units.

Apart from the metric system, (and I truly love many things about France) can anyone name anything since 1066 (last battle won I think although I may be corrected) apart from the guiletine that the French have passed onto the world in terms of engineering using the metric system?

Vive la Bulldog

 

[woodfarmer]

Do you feel better for that Woody

Yup, when I die I will have my Holbrook as a tombstone. It is also imperial only. another ten years and it has its 100th birthday and can still repeat to 2/10 of a thou

OOOH when it is a hundred will it go metric until its 112th birthday ?

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Actually the Shaker population In America willingly adopted the metric system including the litre for volume.

The American gallon is actually an imperial measurement. Britain used 2 gallon measures, the standard one being 8 pints at 20 fl oz and a wine gallon of 8 by 16 fl oz, which is the American pint.

Imperial measurement, for all its pernickety calculations is a more human quantity. The sizes represented have a more ergonomic nature, since they were based on human sizes and shapes and things that were seen everyday. Metric does not easily do this. Le Corbusier recognised the fact and invented the modulor method to try to 'humanise' the metric system. He used the phi ratio and the height of an English policeman (6 ft) to come up with his obscure design system devised to make things like architecture and furniture design easier to visualise, rather than be engineering specifications.

Neither measuring system is perfect, so being able to use both with equal effect is very useful.

I always make furniture in imperial, though was never taught the system at school. I don't think anything should be thousands of any division long, unless we are travelling across continents. Things that I can see in my field of vision should be numbers like 4 or 12 or 2 1/2 not 100 or 3658 or 762.

Mike.

 

[GLFaria]

The reason is metric weights and measurements are not natural sizes nor do they fit in with nature.

Heavens!

What measurement is a natural size? Ever since humanity exists, up to the metric system virtualy every country, even virtualy every neighbouring people, had its own units, or its own values for same-named units. Talking of contemporaneous mesurements, what is more "natural" - the statute mile or the nautical mile? The avoirdupois ounce or the troy ounce? Etc.

As the designers of camouflaged clothing well know, there are no straight lines in nature. Why should we then design implements containing straight lines? They do not fit in with nature!!!

Come on; you only mean to say they don't fit in the British order of things - or, rather, what you wish were the British order of things.

deema, all your examples are British-centered! Which means totally biased. And speaking just of a fine drink, when I go for a beer I most certainly don't go for a pint, not here, nor in Spain, nor in France, nor in Germany or in Italy or any other country in Europe. Just in Britain. And besides nowhere else in Europe do people drink it disgustingly warm

 

[Hemsby]

In 2007 the UK government officially shelved the EU enforced plans for Metrification due to take place by 2009 we have to accept that the duel system is here to stay although Metric seems most prominent in most industries.

I suppose which system we think in is mainly down to age there is no right or wrong way just the one that suits you best, like lots of people I am happy to work in either, but my teenage Grand children don’t have a clue about imperial.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

The reason is metric weights and measurements are not natural sizes nor do they fit in with nature.

Heavens!

What measurement is a natural size? Ever since humanity exists, up to the metric system virtualy every country, even virtualy every neighbouring people, had its own units, or its own values for same-named units. Talking of contemporaneous mesurements, what is more "natural" - the statute mile or the nautical mile? The avoirdupois ounce or the troy ounce? Etc.

As the designers of camouflaged clothing well know, there are no straight lines in nature. Why should we then design implements containing straight lines? They do not fit in with nature!!!

Come on; you only mean to say they don't fit in the British order of things - or, rather, what you wish were the British order of things.

deema, all your examples are British-centered! Which means totally biased. And speaking just of a fine drink, when I go for a beer I most certainly don't go for a pint, not here, nor in Spain, nor in France, nor in Germany or in Italy or any other country in Europe. Just in Britain. And besides nowhere else in Europe do people drink it disgustingly warm

Actually I think Woody has a valid point. Inches and feet in particular are good analogues of many hand held common every day objects and have a "balance" to them which feels right. In woodwork I personally prefer the fine granularity of mm but when I'm describing things I don't need to measure so accurately, I always use feet and inches. Also, your contention that they're Brit centred is rubbish. Here is a quote from Wikipedia on the origins of weights and measures:

The measuring devices found in the Indus Valley actually meet the standards used in South Indian architecture and engineering which are feet and inches.

The Indus valley civilisation existed circa 2400 BC. As for Europe not liking warm beer...they will...when they grow up