bugbear
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BugBear
BugBear
Memorial.
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stormtroopersse
Member
as regards to The Rotterdam Blitz for your satisfaction i choose not to reply as it was quite clear to anyone who knows about the war what happened.
The Rotterdam Blitz 14 May 1940.
to support the German troops fighting in the city.
Schmidt used the threat of destruction of the city to attempt to force Colonel Scharroo to surrender the city without a fight thus saving lifes.
Even though negotiations were successful, failing communications on the German side caused the unnecessary bombardment of much of the city center.
When the message reached KG 54's command post, the Kommodore, Oberst Walter Lackner, was already approaching Rotterdam, and his aircraft had reeled-in their long-range aerials.
German forces in the city fired flares to warn the bombers off — after 3 planes of the southern formation had already unloaded.
the remaining 24 from the southern bomber formation aborted .
Oberst Lackner of the largest formation claimed that his crews were unable to spot red flares due to bad visibility caused by humidity and dense smoke of burning constructions.
IF THEY DID,NT GET THE MESSAGE IN TIME THEN THEY CAN,T BE TO BLAMED.
as regards to belsen and the rest which are death camps the subject is about a memorial due to bombings ect not death camps or concentration camps.
if we include the camps then this debate will never end as we would have to go back to the start with The assassination on 28 June 1914 of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria for the ww1.
which lead to the Treaty of Versailles which put a strangle hold on germany with cost payments £6.6 billion) in 1921 which is roughly equivalent to $400 Billion US Dollars as of 2010.
would have taken Germany until 1988 to pay.
which was then part blame for the start of ww2.
The Rotterdam Blitz 14 May 1940.
to support the German troops fighting in the city.
Schmidt used the threat of destruction of the city to attempt to force Colonel Scharroo to surrender the city without a fight thus saving lifes.
Even though negotiations were successful, failing communications on the German side caused the unnecessary bombardment of much of the city center.
When the message reached KG 54's command post, the Kommodore, Oberst Walter Lackner, was already approaching Rotterdam, and his aircraft had reeled-in their long-range aerials.
German forces in the city fired flares to warn the bombers off — after 3 planes of the southern formation had already unloaded.
the remaining 24 from the southern bomber formation aborted .
Oberst Lackner of the largest formation claimed that his crews were unable to spot red flares due to bad visibility caused by humidity and dense smoke of burning constructions.
IF THEY DID,NT GET THE MESSAGE IN TIME THEN THEY CAN,T BE TO BLAMED.
as regards to belsen and the rest which are death camps the subject is about a memorial due to bombings ect not death camps or concentration camps.
if we include the camps then this debate will never end as we would have to go back to the start with The assassination on 28 June 1914 of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria for the ww1.
which lead to the Treaty of Versailles which put a strangle hold on germany with cost payments £6.6 billion) in 1921 which is roughly equivalent to $400 Billion US Dollars as of 2010.
would have taken Germany until 1988 to pay.
which was then part blame for the start of ww2.
But this monument is not to the glory of either the war or of one specific action in a long and bloody war! It is a memorial for the airmen who lost their lives.
As such it's a disgrace to attempt to tar every one of them that died with the memory of one specific action. Feel free to rave against the commanders who made the call or to attempt to argue the merits of x thousand UK allied deaths against Y thousand German deaths as if this makes any mathematical sense but it's plain wrong to discriminate against the airmen who died.
We have a massive debt to all those who died defeating the Nazis (note not the Germans) and to attempt to minimise this is in poor taste.
I can fully understand the distate in the target town and their refusal to have the commander present at rememberance services however I don't recall any objection to German war memorials to either bomber crews who slaughtered civilians or to UBoat commanders who machine gunned people in the water etc etc etc. War's cr*p and horrible things are done on both sides. We need to remember this and the specifics as well as the root causes so that we can avoid it happening again.
Sorry to rant
Miles
As such it's a disgrace to attempt to tar every one of them that died with the memory of one specific action. Feel free to rave against the commanders who made the call or to attempt to argue the merits of x thousand UK allied deaths against Y thousand German deaths as if this makes any mathematical sense but it's plain wrong to discriminate against the airmen who died.
We have a massive debt to all those who died defeating the Nazis (note not the Germans) and to attempt to minimise this is in poor taste.
I can fully understand the distate in the target town and their refusal to have the commander present at rememberance services however I don't recall any objection to German war memorials to either bomber crews who slaughtered civilians or to UBoat commanders who machine gunned people in the water etc etc etc. War's cr*p and horrible things are done on both sides. We need to remember this and the specifics as well as the root causes so that we can avoid it happening again.
Sorry to rant
Miles
Hi, as a history buff I am well aware of the details and agree that a recall order was intended over Rotterdam, I would point out that BC men were also obeying orders, the fact that a recall order was issued only shows that the raid was intentional.
If you wish to claim that it was in support of troops on the ground perhaps you would care to explain Guernica, London, Bristol etc where no troops were engaged.
Quite how you can think that the unfairness of Versaille can be used to justify the death camps mystifies me. Perhaps you would care to explain?
The USSR was not signatory to Versaille, didn't save them from the death camps did it?
You say you are a gamer, perhaps this would be a good time to point out that WW2 was not a game!
I would also point out that we only finished paying for WW2 earlier this year.
What ever your comments vis-a vis memorial/death camps whether you like it or not the camps are what the Nazis will be remembered for.
BC command served with courage, what courage was needed to gas women and children?
If the boot had been on the other foot the Germans would not now be whinging, after all, they started the war by invading Poland, though whether that's in your game scenario I know not.
Roy.
If you wish to claim that it was in support of troops on the ground perhaps you would care to explain Guernica, London, Bristol etc where no troops were engaged.
Quite how you can think that the unfairness of Versaille can be used to justify the death camps mystifies me. Perhaps you would care to explain?
The USSR was not signatory to Versaille, didn't save them from the death camps did it?
You say you are a gamer, perhaps this would be a good time to point out that WW2 was not a game!
I would also point out that we only finished paying for WW2 earlier this year.
What ever your comments vis-a vis memorial/death camps whether you like it or not the camps are what the Nazis will be remembered for.
BC command served with courage, what courage was needed to gas women and children?
If the boot had been on the other foot the Germans would not now be whinging, after all, they started the war by invading Poland, though whether that's in your game scenario I know not.
Roy.
stormtroopersse
Member
digit, you are still refering to the camps when where on about a mermorial lol.
as for a claim to support german troops its a fact not a claim do your research properly this info is directly from the reports the uk and usa made over the bombings.
not once did i say the versaille treaty justified anything so where you read that from i don,t know..
also not once did i mention war is a game i said i was a gamer again you misread the post yet again lol.
just because i,m a gamer you seem to confuse real war and games together, while i play all sorts of games for fun and recreational time, i,m not defending nazism or any other beliefs.
as for the ussr thats another long winded story that defers from the subject of the matter.with which we would have to go back to
Anti-Comintern Pact in 1939, to counter the Soviet Union's communism threat.
all men in all wars serve with courage regardless what there own dictators command them to do.
as for a claim to support german troops its a fact not a claim do your research properly this info is directly from the reports the uk and usa made over the bombings.
not once did i say the versaille treaty justified anything so where you read that from i don,t know..
also not once did i mention war is a game i said i was a gamer again you misread the post yet again lol.
just because i,m a gamer you seem to confuse real war and games together, while i play all sorts of games for fun and recreational time, i,m not defending nazism or any other beliefs.
as for the ussr thats another long winded story that defers from the subject of the matter.with which we would have to go back to
Anti-Comintern Pact in 1939, to counter the Soviet Union's communism threat.
all men in all wars serve with courage regardless what there own dictators command them to do.
studders
Established Member
stormtroopersse":2ffvqwo7 said:
The Mods aren't hurling any personal abuse. The above suggests who may be.
studders
Established Member
Cue Basil Fawlty
"Don't mention the War...... I did, but I think I got away with it"
"Don't mention the War...... I did, but I think I got away with it"
Mike.C
Established Member
studders":14c58i2e said:
Can we have less of the personal abuse FROM ANYONE ,MOD
Is that better Mr S?
Cheers
Mike
And whether you like it or not the camps ARE Nazism's memorial.
And I repeat, if Germany hadn't started the war she would not gave been bombed nor invaded nor occupied nor divided, thus there would be no memorial nor need, thus it ill becomes the Germans to whinge.
My reason for mentioning the camps is because the report claims that the bombing was near a war crime and hurts reconciliation, as the biggest war criminals the world has ever known the Germans are guilty of hypocrisy and should shut up.
Roy.
And I repeat, if Germany hadn't started the war she would not gave been bombed nor invaded nor occupied nor divided, thus there would be no memorial nor need, thus it ill becomes the Germans to whinge.
My reason for mentioning the camps is because the report claims that the bombing was near a war crime and hurts reconciliation, as the biggest war criminals the world has ever known the Germans are guilty of hypocrisy and should shut up.
Roy.
studders
Established Member
:lol:
Much better Mr C.
Much better Mr C.
stormtroopersse
Member
studders":1j8r6ykc said:
you must of overlooked the previous post which referred devon to me being a troll in 2 different posts.
which entailed me to my reply.
so i presume as my post was highlighted calling members a troll is fine.
but heho if your not in the club i guess your not in.
in reply to digit
i don,t see the camps as nazism memorials but a reminder of what happened and to hopefully avoid the same outcome that the germans installed on the jews ect in the war.
there a constant reminder of what not to do.
also a place we can visit and have respect for the dead who had the sad fortune of experiencing the atrocities that happened in the camps.
if we go back in time we can see our world is full of wars and rights and wrongs,and it will never change.
as humans we are savages even in our modern times.
we've just got the ability to kill more and to kill better.
if we add up all the money we invest in wars and killing people it would be a horrendous amount which could have been used to help countries instead of trying to annihilate them.
while we stand divided there will always be wars.
And who ordered the first bombing of civilians during World War II?
Adolf Hitler? - No
Hermann Goering? - No
Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill. - Oh Yes.
British Bombing Strategy in World War Two
Adolf Hitler? - No
Hermann Goering? - No
Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill. - Oh Yes.
British Bombing Strategy in World War Two
studders
Established Member
stormtroopersse":1jui8urw said:
Nope. Asking for NO insults would have been sufficient. Calling someone a Moron then asking for the above was just hypercritical.
BTW There is no 'club' that I'm aware of.
Well unless you are suggesting that Churchill new that the Luftwaffe's bombing was a mistake, bomber command's action was retaliatory. You are of course ignoring Rotterdam and the bombing and strafing of civilians during the Wehrmacht's Blitzkreig as well.
Roy
Roy
Ironballs
Established Member
The question I would ask is why now? It's 70 years since 1940, in human terms 70 years is a very long time and the pace of change in the 20th/21st century has been phenomenal.
I know I owe my personal liberty to all those who gave their lives in WW2 but at the same time I'm not sure what purpose erecting new memorials in 2010 will serve?
We do not live in the same world as those who did during the Blitz and this or any new memorial feels to me like it's out of its time. At some point we will have to decide collectively as a nation to lay this to rest, maybe the time is approaching sooner than we think
I know I owe my personal liberty to all those who gave their lives in WW2 but at the same time I'm not sure what purpose erecting new memorials in 2010 will serve?
We do not live in the same world as those who did during the Blitz and this or any new memorial feels to me like it's out of its time. At some point we will have to decide collectively as a nation to lay this to rest, maybe the time is approaching sooner than we think
big soft moose
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nanscombe":1hv3pw96 said:
We know the luffewaffe wasnt adverse to bombing civillians tho, given what they did during the spanish civil war in '36 in support of franco , so its entirely poosible that the idea that the first bombing of london was accidental is just propoganda.
Certainly by the time of the coventry raid the german strategy included the delibertate targetting of civiliians - in fact Herman the german is on record as saying "that in time of war there is no such thing as an enemy civilian, just the enemy - the "civilian" works for the enemies war machine and thus is as a legitimate a target as a soilder, sailor or airman"
Given a philosophy like that they can have very little to complain about when their own civilian populace is targeted.
Ironballs":1txy8ria said:
I suspect that some of the reasons that we've not had a European war for 70 years (which is a very long time I suspect when looked at with historical eyes) are:
1) we're living for longer - hence generations are longer so historical events are "closer"
2) we do keep remembering the war and above all the reasons + we have an acknowledgement that both sides are imprefect and that wars start for pretty silly reasons
3) after WW2 one mistake of the victory of WW1 as not repeated - i.e. the destruction of Germany
4) Conquest is not carried out in different arenas - sport, commerce, politics and hence wars can be fought and nationalism feed without killing each other
There is also far less blind obedience and unquestioning authority which is a good thing, but I do think that chief in these are the "recent" memory and the constant memory of the victims and consequences of war. Who doesn't look at some war torn **** and thing "thank God that's not me - thank goodness the sound of a circling helicopter just makes me think of traffic jams and not airborne death".
Miles
matt
Established Member
Your comment about the copter reminded me of a thought that remained with me throughout the fighter jet display at a recent air show. I found myself sitting in a field, with friends and family - including my daughter and whilst everyone around me was in awe of the jets and the noise I felt almost removed and distanced from the spectacle as I imagined how frightening that noise must be when you're at war and that is the sound of your enemy.
