The difference between pulling a single 2.5mm and a single 4mm isn’t that great but some of the fault conditions that can occur on a ring final can (assuming 2.5mm cable) give you a ring with 1 of the conductors split while the others are not so you have a 32A MCB that will not trip on steady state load until probably over 40A draw for quite a long period 30 minutes plus so potentially a 2.5mm cable passing 40A for that amount of time. It will get toasty to say the least and quite easily more than just toasty, the MCB can’t do its job.How? If the circuit protection is adequately sized for the conductor size and installation specifics, the cable can’t become overloaded?
I have no issues with ring finals but a break in the circuit creates an undersized and inadequately protected radial and even if the ring is complete, plugging appliances in close to the start/end of the ring can cause current imbalance, particularly in a long circuit. However... it’s a lot easier to pull 2.5mm cable!
Actually the idea of metal consumer units is that the metal, which it doesn’t have to be, it can be any non combustible material, hence the consumer unit can be boxed up, is to remove the fuel.But a switch is not an isolator and vica versa.
Yes plastic CUs do burn and spread the resulting fire, often not helped by being under the stairs and burried in allsorts of stuff someone has put there out of the way, similar to stacking a bonfire! The idea of metal units is to contain the thermal event, but regular test and inspection would probably be more effective, just like people who never test their RCD's on a regular basis.
However if the circuit is correctly designed, small overloads of long duration shall be unlikely to occur. (BS7661, 433.1) So if having the work done by a scheme member & in compliance with Approved documents then the work must comply with this, that is the designer must design the circuit such that small overload labof a long duration are unlikely. They would need to be able to justify and design in compliance with that requirement.The difference between pulling a single 2.5mm and a single 4mm isn’t that great but some of the fault conditions that can occur on a ring final can (assuming 2.5mm cable) give you a ring with 1 of the conductors split while the others are not so you have a 32A MCB that will not trip on steady state load until probably over 40A draw for quite a long period 30 minutes plus so potentially a 2.5mm cable passing 40A for that amount of time. It will get toasty to say the least and quite easily more than just toasty, the MCB can’t do its job.
However with 2 X 2.5mm radials each will have a 20A MCB so allowing a greater total draw than the ring final and if you do overload a single circuit to 40A the time to trip on the MCB is going to be minutes or seconds so the MCB does it job of protecting the conductors. This is one of the reasons why very few new ring finals are ever installed as the ONLY benefit is using a single 32A MCB in the CU vs 2 20A MCBs the supposed savings in copper are tiny if they exist at all.
It is more than likely that in a future revision of the regulations they will be totally deprecated for new installs.
Unlike the single dose vaccine split by 3 times the tested interval before the second booster, forced by lack of supply and hugely rising hospitalisation, that is proving to be a very good idea as the protection is much greater. The use of ring finals while they may have been useful in the 40s and early 50s. Were not a good idea and should have been phased out many decades ago.
Not true as the ring must he electrically separated from other circuits when designed and constructed.That can’t be done as you have to isolate the ring final that you are testing from all other circuits, so must be done at the CU wherever it is, I have sympathy for sparkles and the contortions they have to go through.
You should look at the current testing regulations. When testing a ring final you have to do the same test as when installing which involves detaching from the MCB so you have to do this part along with the loop tests at the CU.Not true as the ring must he electrically separated from other circuits when designed and constructed.
A load of 32A is considerably greater than a 2.5mm cable is considered safe for. While the circuit is in good condition it’s safe however there are fault conditions that can run that through a single not double length of 2.5mm. Those fault conditions can be completely symptomless as all outlets can function normally but the ring is faulty.However if the circuit is correctly designed, small overloads of long duration shall be unlikely to occur. (BS7661, 433.1) So if having the work done by a scheme member & in compliance with Approved documents then the work must comply with this, that is the designer must design the circuit such that small overload labof a long duration are unlikely. They would need to be able to justify and design in compliance with that requirement.
I am more than familiar with the current version of BS7671, before I was hit by the cancer (less than 6 months ago), part of what I did was tutoring and practical examination for the inspection and testing qualifications related to BS7671.You should look at the current testing regulations. When testing a ring final you have to do the same test as when installing which involves detaching from the MCB so you have to do this part along with the loop tests at the CU.
That is why a Domestic Electrical Installation Condition Report costs upwards of £200 with repairs on top of that
A load of 32A is considerably greater than a 2.5mm cable is considered safe for. While the circuit is in good condition it’s safe however there are fault conditions that can run that through a single not double length of 2.5mm. Those fault conditions can be completely symptomless as all outlets can function normally but the ring is faulty.
So ring finals are safe if in good condition but much worse than a radial in some fault conditions
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Again I an fully aware of the CCC of a 2.5/1.5 flat twin & cpc cable.A load of 32A is considerably greater than a 2.5mm cable is considered safe for. While the circuit is in good condition it’s safe however there are fault conditions that can run that through a single not double length of 2.5mm. Those fault conditions can be completely symptomless as all outlets can function normally but the ring is faulty.
So ring finals are safe if in good condition but much worse than a radial in some fault conditions
BS7671 requirements are that every final circuit shall be electrically separate from every other.The reason for disconnecting at the distribution board is so that your ring is completely independant, you need the two CPC's to be able to prove the ring is continous, it is no good having them both connected along with the other CPC's on the common earth rail.
I agree that to find the prospective fault currents using a modern tester that the circuit can be tested without any disconnection simply by pluging/connecting the tester to the circuit and either noting the values and or recording within the tester.For a ring final in flat twin & cpc or singles in pvc conduit, to do the ring integrity checks to derive r1, r2 & rn, along with R1 & R2, IF these are even essential for an EICR can be done without disconnecting from the CU.
I am fully aware of the requirements for initial verification of a ring final circuit.I agree that to find the prospective fault currents using a modern tester that the circuit can be tested without any disconnection simply by pluging/connecting the tester to the circuit and either noting the values and or recording within the tester.
A ring circuit requires additional test when compared to a radial because you have to confirm that A) The ring is infact a ring, consisting of L,N & CPC and B) It has not been bridged by any additional circuits or addons. To this end the only way to prove the ring is a ring is by disconnecting at the board to perform a continuarity test as shown. Note this applies for 1 to n sockets.
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No I am not saying it is invalid but I always tested at the board, my reasoning was simple: The Neutrals are all connected to a common neutral bar unless there are RCBO's and the same for the CPC's. Testing at a socket could give incorrect readings because someone may have picked up a neutral or CPC from another circuit.you’re arguing that testing at a socket is invalid, which implies either false passes or false fails. Could you show us a situation where this could happen? A diagram would be useful.
That is normally refered to as an E-Stop or an emergency stop and in most industrial situations there is one located near / on every machine. In some circumstances such as training shops and the like that E-Stop will operate to stop all machines, remember back to a) when there were such classes in schools and b) there were STOP buttons everywhere so the teacher could kill all the power if the class started to behave like idiots.Afraid I don't know the electrical details but, when I had my workshop wired, my wife insisted on a "panic switch" being installed by the door
The switch is good but I consider this betterA little update... workshop now has two sets of plugs:
white (2.5mm cable) for ‘normal stuff’ such as charging batteries / wifi / tv / sonos / etc... some of which also have usb ports...
red (4mm cable) are separate and all run through an isolator switch, like the stock photo below... works really well, turn it and all machinery is dead...
(the storage shed / barn / was a carport... next to the garage has a separate white circuit and then separate blue plugs for the chest freezer and fridge-freezer)
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