Marking knives

[pe2dave]

I've two Stanley knives, as used by Sellers, which I find I can apply pressure more than sufficient to get a cut to develop into a knife wall using chisels. Fingers are well away from the blade and with Swann Morton 4211 blades, quite strong enough.
HTH

 

[Jacob]

Scalpels and fancy/flimsy craft knives not suitable IMHO. "Over thinking" as usual!
Pencil is best most of the time, but if you need to cut then a deep cut in one pass is best, with the sturdy trad marking knife still made by Crown and others. Cuts with either hand, you just lean it out for the bevel, and you can cut out the V for a neat saw cut, with a second pass.
Not that different from @J Bodger s practical looking example above

Mind you I use a chisel craft knife for marking DTs through the pin holes - just a light tap with a little mallet and no slicing action.

 

[MikeK]

Scalpels and fancy/flimsy craft knives not suitable IMHO. "Over thinking" as usual!

You might want to read your previous post #37 in this thread where you recommend craft knives, which conflicts with this statement.

Edit: Never mind, I see you are using the chisel blade.

 

[Jacob]

You might want to read your previous post #37 in this thread where you recommend craft knives, which conflicts with this statement.

Edit: Never mind, I see you are using the chisel blade.

Yes the chisel blade for DTs because it is thinner than any saw kerf and you don't need a slicing action, which is where lines can go wrong. You just have to remember to turn it flat face to the wall or it'll be out by the width of the bevel.

 

[Ttrees]

Those Crown marking knives are so cheap, that l have both left and right handed.
Though I've never came across a tool steel so soft, possibly deliberate?
not experienced any other tool with such an acute point to compare.

One of the best sharpening lessons I ever got was because of that softness,
as I kept un-wantingly honing a cambered bevel, and making the tip less acute,
(the point gets damage very easily)
until I learned I had to keep the bevel on the hone much like a honing guide
and not along the hone in order to achieve a flat edge straight across which keeps the point acute.
I reckon I'd still be in the dark about this otherwise, seeing as they were so quick to remedy.

Tom

 

[Jacob]

.....
until I learned I had to keep the bevel on the hone much like a honing guide
....

Sounds like you are getting to grips with normal freehand sharpening!

 

[Ttrees]

Is there any other way to hone these?

 

[Jacob]

Is there any other way to hone these?

I'm sure you could watch vids, rig up jigs and buy gadgets if you really want to do it the modern way, but why bother, you've cracked it!

 

[Ttrees]

Honing guides do have a place, the Eclipse knockoff ones for a fiver that is, which can't hold these knives.
Safe to say a newcomer would get their moneys worth, and could ditch them when they need to without guilt or whatever emotion present, if shelving a fancy one.
Even for scary sharp grinding primary bevels, should one not have want for a bench grinder,
(a seriously good tool to have around)
though I've ner used a honing guide for that, and guess a fancy one might get a bit scuffed doing this.

Certainly a short term consideration for folks who've not got the space for one, though likely arguable.
If there's benefit to be had from using them, it's the need for a flat hone, which is apt for those
knives, as it's no fun coming off the edge of a hollow stone and nicking the edge, if you can only use the corners.

Tom

 

[Jacob]

Honing guides do have a place,

Mine are in a drawer gathering dust, I haven't used them in years.

the Eclipse knockoff ones for a fiver that is, which can't hold these knives.
Safe to say a newcomer would get their moneys worth, and could ditch them when they need to without guilt or whatever emotion present, if shelving a fancy one.
Even for scary sharp grinding primary bevels, should one not have want for a bench grinder,
(a seriously good tool to have around)
though I've ner used a honing guide for that, and guess a fancy one might get a bit scuffed doing this.

Certainly a short term consideration for folks who've not got the space for one, though likely arguable.
If there's benefit to be had from using them, it's the need for a flat hone, which is apt for those
knives, as it's no fun coming off the edge of a hollow stone and nicking the edge, if you can only use the corners.

Tom

Sharpening a knife like this freehand, on a reasonably flat stone, is extremely easy , which is a huge benefit not a disadvantage.
If you put it anywhere near a powered grindstone you could wreck it.

 

[Ttrees]

Agreed, which is why I use some cheapie diamond hones which don't have a hollow.
One swipe on anything but reasonably flat is enough to bend the tip,
These Crown knives certainly don't get any service from the bench grinder either due to being so soft.

Guessing some other makers knives are as acute also, possibly Japanese?
I'd find it interesting in knowing how brittle they might be, should they be a substantially harder.

Seems from those white/blue steel chisels, if similar hardness you could take out your eye if such a point from a kinfe were to snap off...
which may sound like misuse to the highest degree, but I found I somehow bent the tips of mine
and they get very little use.


Been sighting those sharp little knives recently, as a cut mop handle is just about the best tool for unclogging the lawnmower, especially if mowing a field without the bag, as it gets bungeed to the throttle.
Rounding off the cut handle, (these go missing) I'd guess would annihilate them.

I wonder if a lawnmower blade could be a good source for stock, without all the hardening malarkey?
Would be a treat if that'd work.

Cheers
Tom

 

[Jorny]

I've made marking knives from an almost used up laminated union plane iron found in our summer house. Fun little project.

 

[Sideways]

Guessing some other makers knives are as acute also, possibly Japanese?
I'd find it interesting in knowing how brittle they might be, should they be a substantially harder.

I bought a cheapo Japanese laminated kiridashi and found it a bit uncomfortable because it wasn't very well finished around the sides. I thought I'd file it smooth around the back / edges.
Glass hard is the answer. My file was blunted and useless from the first stroke.
Interestingly, the soft laminate was so soft that a scotchbrite pad smeared the design. Talk about extremes !

 

[Jacob]

...

I wonder if a lawnmower blade could be a good source for stock, without all the hardening malarkey?
Would be a treat if that'd work.

Cheers
Tom

Best source of stock would be almost any other old knife.
There'll be a suitable one in your kitchen.
It's not as though it's a design/tech problem, unless you are really looking for a challenge - "101 things you can make with an old lawnmower" etc.

 

[thetyreman]

I've two Stanley knives, as used by Sellers, which I find I can apply pressure more than sufficient to get a cut to develop into a knife wall using chisels. Fingers are well away from the blade and with Swann Morton 4211 blades, quite strong enough.
HTH

+1 I use this one, have tried a few different ones now and it's the best of them all, bought 50 swann morton blades over 5 years ago and still got loads left.

 

[Ttrees]

Best source of stock would be almost any other old knife.
There'll be a suitable one in your kitchen.
It's not as though it's a design/tech problem, unless you are really looking for a challenge - "101 things you can make with an old lawnmower" etc.

I don't have any thick enough knives to even make the Crown ones,
let alone the types I've seen from some of the Japanese or Baltic countries, and even if I did the steel might be questionable whether it would hold up or not.
I was thinking something I could get my thumb behind for a similar shaped, but stronger knife,
as I've never been convinced about penknives for general tasks.
No more difficult than making one from a chef's knife really, would be all ears for other sources of hardened steel thick enough.

@Jorny Do we get to see?

@Sideways Be interested to know how the point holds up, or whether it chips off easily.
PS thanks for informing me of the Kiridashi type, as that's what I'm thinking, as I seen a real nice one from somewhere recently and it looked handy.
PPS Can't find the piccy, it was a bought Japanese one, which the owner made a nice handle for, something along the lines of this, and I note a lot of them don't have a point!

Cheers
Tom

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Talking of high quality marking knives, here's my collection. I use what I call a bird's beak knife for transferring sawn dovetail or pin profiles to the end grain of the matching board. It works well for that task because the pointed end gets right into tight corners and it's slim enough to get between the narrowest gaps between the tails, even if the gap is no more than the dovetail saw's kerf as sometimes used for those extremely thin pinned show off dovetails some people like to do - not me though I must admit.

The knife above the bird's beak one gets used for general purpose marking, e.g., striking a line against the blade of a set square. At the bottom is my trusty Stanley knife which I may have owned for forty years with a blade that probably hasn't been changed for perhaps eight or ten years, but as can probably be seen, has been tickled up on a stone from time to time. This knife too is used for general purpose marking.

As to the two knives above the Stanley knife, I suspect most viewers will discern at one glance that they are highly sophisticated custom made items carefully crafted for ergonomic comfort using first class rare materials including broken hacksaw blade, scrap mahogany, sisal or similar string soaked in diluted PVA adhesive and carefully wrapped and knotted around the perfectly formed handles. I think there may also have been a little epoxy resin used to fix the carefully shaped and honed blades into the slot in the handles.

I'd be happy to take orders for similar examples of these lovingly crafted artisanal items: £50 each, or discounted to £95 for a matching pair, plus P&P, payable in advance, non-refundable. However, bear in mind that if you order I may not be in the mood to make them, so probably wouldn't, and once your money goes into my bank all entreaties from 'customers' to return their pre-payment will most likely be ignored. Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

Talking of high quality marking knives, here's my collection. I use what I call a bird's beak knife for transferring sawn dovetail or pin profiles to the end grain of the matching board. It works well for that task because the pointed end gets right into tight corners and it's slim enough to get between the narrowest gaps between the tails,

good idea, pulling it though rather than poking it down and slicing from the top - and it's not going to slice off the side of the pin hole. I hope you have patented it!

even if the gap is no more than the dovetail saw's kerf as sometimes used for those extremely thin pinned show off dovetails some people like to do - not me though I must admit.

I've done thin ones often. They are no more difficult than any other, in fact slightly easier as the second cut is just started in the kerf of the first one. You just have to work with enough accuracy to avoid hacking off the thin pins.

The knife above the bird's beak one gets used for general purpose marking, e.g., striking a line against the blade of a set square. At the bottom is my trusty Stanley knife which I may have owned for forty years with a blade that probably hasn't been changed for perhaps eight or ten years, but as can probably be seen, has been tickled up on a stone from time to time.

Skin flint! I change my blade every two years like clockwork

This knife too is used for general purpose marking.

As to the two knives above the Stanley knife, I suspect most viewers will discern at one glance that they are highly sophisticated custom made items carefully crafted for ergonomic comfort using first class rare materials including broken hacksaw blade, scrap mahogany, sisal or similar string soaked in diluted PVA adhesive and carefully wrapped and knotted around the perfectly formed handles. I think there may also have been a little epoxy resin used to fix the carefully shaped and honed blades into the slot in the handles.

I'd be happy to take orders for similar examples of these lovingly crafted artisanal items: £50 each, or discounted to £95 for a matching pair, plus P&P, payable in advance, non-refundable. However, bear in mind that if you order I may not be in the mood to make them, so probably wouldn't, and once your money goes into my bank all entreaties from 'customers' to return their pre-payment will most likely be ignored. Slainte.

View attachment 158545​

Bargains! Don't forget to sign them!
What sort of string do you use, does have to be the correct string?
How hard is the steel in the bottom one?

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I hope you have patented it!

Bargains! Don't forget to sign them!
What sort of string do you use, does have to be the correct string?
How hard is the steel in the bottom one?

Jacob, patented? Not a cat in hell's chance. I give the ideas freely to the world but who's got the skill to replicate my skill and genius.

I have done the skinny pinned dovetails just as demonstrations to learners really, and can vouch that they're easy enough to do and, as you say, you can simply reinsert the sawblade into the existing kerf. What I meant is that I can't remember ever using such dovetails in furniture I've made, so said I don't do them, if you see what I mean.

I wouldn't sign my artisan made knives. That would devalue them, like signing my book drivellings devalues that, ha ha.
String? No idea except it needs to not be nylon or polypropylene type stuff that doesn't absorb water, so something water absorbent has to be it, e.g., sisal, hemp, cotton based, maybe. Drying string tightens nicely.
Steel hardness in the Stanley knife blade? Not a clue, but they sharpen easily enough and seem to hold an edge pretty well - good enough for my needs anyway. Slainte..

 

[Sideways]

would be all ears for other sources of hardened steel
...
Tom

Take a look for ground flat stock aka gauge plate in o1 steel
It is or at least was cheap and made in a huge range of sizes. 3mm, 4mm thick no problem.
I would just grind whatever edge on it you want, ease the edges for comfort and heat treat the cutting end with a mapp gas torch, maybe inside a hollowed out soft firebrick, and quench even in water.
You need bright red and you need to go hot to cold v fast or it won't harden. It should be in oil but small pieces lose heat v fast as soon as they come out of the flame and may need water which shocks it more.

I bought a small knife once with a design and edge inspired by the kiridashi. It turned out to be too small and basic for any other use so mine's in the workshop as the marking knife that inspired it. Kiridashi doesn't have to be laminated...