Marking knives

[bugbear]

My problem seems to be getting a sufficient depth of cut at the initial stages.

Depth of cut is largely determined by 3 factors.

1) Pressure; you can press harder (a bigger handle helps here)

2) Sharpness (obvious, and a can of worms )

3) Bevel angle. Less obvious. As the knife descends, a triangle of wood has to be compressed out of the way. It's not removed like saw. So a lower bevel will allow you knife to cut deeper (1) and (2) being equal. The amount of wood being compressed is less, and the lower wedge angle gives more mechanical advantage. (A single bevel knife is likely to have a lower total bevel).

This was bought home to me (in reverse) when I made a bladed marking for cross grain work gauge with a very low bevel angle blade, and the mark was scarcely visible on the surface but very deep. This was an excellent cutting gauge, but a poor marking gauge. I made a new blade with a steeper bevel.

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

That makes sense, BB, thanks. It explains why my Japanese knife works so well - it's single bevel with a long shallow point. It holds an edge very well. It cuts deep enough and can be used to remove the adjacent sliver if wanted.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I find if I use a Stanley it pays to go over the line with pencil as my eyes are not what they were.

 

[Jacob]

....
2) Sharpness (obvious, and a can of worms ).....

Sharpening is only a can of worms to the tiny group of modern amateur woodworkers who have been talked into modern sharpening rituals and buying all the gadgets.
For many millions of other sharpeners, for thousands of years, back to the stone age most likely, sharpening isn't/wasn't a problem.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Groundhog day again. :lol:

 

[matthewwh]

Maybe we should have a sticky that explains for newcomers to woodworking that there are often many different approaches to reach broadly the same end. Pick a method, stick with it until you can do it, then gradually try others and if you find something better, go with that.

Following on from Bugbear's diagram above, it's worth noting that there are several designs of laminated Japanese knife that live under the broad heading of Kogatana. The Kasaya knives are about half the thickness of the more common kiridashi or jibiki styles and have a flat back and lower bevel angle. I've been using one for a while and find it gives a nice deep line with very little pressure.

 

[bugbear]

Groundhog day again. :lol:

It's always groundhog day!

BugBear

 

[Student]

A very interesting discussion; thank you.

To answer a couple of Jacob’s points. Firstly, I apologise for the incorrect terminology with regard to the pencil that I mentioned; I should have called it a mechanical pencil which has the advantage of not needing sharpening and having a fine point. I do use a carpenter’s pencil, if that is the correct terminology, for marking face sides. As far as Robert Wearing is concerned, I believe that he was, indeed, a teacher. However, if you look at my UKW name, you will understand why I might follow his advice. On the subject of teaching, I am not sure what Paul Sellers would be classed as, perhaps he has a long history of cabinet making but, at present, I would also class him as a teacher and am a fan of his You Tube videos. However, I also respect the advice given on this forum by Jacob, Custard and others too numerous to mention who are practising craftsmen and give their time to help newbies like me.

My apologies to MikeG. I hadn’t seen that particular thread but will have a look in due course. I am, though, an avid follower of Mike’s restoration work displayed on this and the WH2 website. He makes me tired just seeing what he manages to do.

 

[Jacob]

.... On the subject of teaching, I am not sure what Paul Sellers would be classed as, perhaps he has a long history of cabinet making .....

I don't know either, but I suspect he made a lot of things before he became a media guru.

 

[DBT85]

On the subject of teaching, I am not sure what Paul Sellers would be classed as, perhaps he has a long history of cabinet making but, at present, I would also class him as a teacher and am a fan of his You Tube videos.

He's been doing it for some time, 50 something years now and he's got furniture in the White House if I recall correctly too from back when he lived in the US. He spent 20 odd years teaching face to face woodwork in the US before moving back here. I don't know how much stuff he makes for money these days but considering the size of the new development they've just had purpose built, the amount he charges to have 16 people in a class for a day/week I can't help but think he's doing rather well for himself at this point! All that and he does a lot of his video work with £25 ebay #4s, £7 aldi chisels and 100 year old saws he bought for 12p at a car boot.

Its crazy the influence he has though. He says that the Stanley 151 is great and prices go up. He likes the Record 52 1/2 and prices are higher than all the others (though I got 2 for £77 so I can't complain).

 

[Student]

Just an update. I bought one of the knives that Paul Sellers uses and it arrived last week. First impressions are very good although it didn't help that it fell apart when I undid the holding screw to release the packing and it took me 1/2 an hour to work out to reassemble it.

Thanks again for all your advice.

 

[D_W]

A friend of mine used to run a very good joinery shop before his premature death. They used fine ball-point pens for their marking out.

Now that sounds like a good idea. Unless you're protecting severed fibers from cross work, a fine pen writes very easily.

I like to use a decent pencil. The gray palomino blackwing has very solid, strong lead on it, but you do have to resharpen it often. And it's really expensive (about two dollars a pencil).

 

[AndyT]

I chipped in early about the Japanese knife I often use, but I was away from the workshop at the time. Back there today, I reminded myself about an excellent little marking knife I was given recently and took a few pictures.

I like it for the way it fits into my hand like a pen, with a fairly thick end which tapers away to pencil size. Here's the whole thing

and here it is in use

But what first attracted me to it was the branding! I think we all need as much practical hope as we can get, wherever it comes from!

A quick search tells me that there is a Hope Mill in Manchester - so maybe it once housed a toolshop and "Practical" was their trade mark? I don't know, and it's never easy searching for common words like this, so if anyone has local knowledge, do say. I can see there are several villages called Hope but I don't think it's a Manchester suburb, is it?

Whatever the history, it's comfortable and works nicely.

 

[custard]

That's a beautiful tool. But isn't it odd that the name's stamped on the left of the blade? For a right handed user who wanted a single bevel they'd be flattening off the maker's mark.

 

[D_W]

I have favored double bevel knives for a while.

The cheapest stockman pocket knife will still have a sheepsfoot blade on it (and you can find one that locks if you're offended by slipjoint knives). Those are easy to sharpen, and make great marking knives that don't climb wooden squares, etc.

The other knife that I really like is a similar blade profile on a decent chip carving knife. double bevel, sort of sheepsfoot, long enough to do the job and inexpensive. Won't mark between tiny dovetails that well, but you can do that easily (if you have to) just by cutting a piece of spring steel off of an old junk saw, and filing it to shape and literally gluing a handle to it with epoxy. Nothing more is needed. Spring steel will dull mildly at the very tip quickly, which is kind of nice.

 

[AndyT]

I think it's the convention to mark a knife on that side. Think table knives, or even Stanley knife blades.
And there's plenty of steel left for me and a few more users!

 

[Jacob]

....mark between tiny dovetails that well, but you can do that easily (if you have to) just by cutting a piece of spring steel off of an old junk saw, and filing it to shape and literally gluing a handle to it with epoxy. Nothing more is needed. Spring steel will dull mildly at the very tip quickly, which is kind of nice.

I do similar with a cheapo craft knife with square chisel end. Thin enough to slot into the smallest DTs or saw kerfs - just press it in, no slicing required.
Bottom left:

 

[J Bodger]

As before, it is with some trepidation that I set foot on this area of the forum. Although I have been doing various projects using machinery over the years, it’s only recently that I have decided to try getting results using hand tools. As such, I’ve upgraded from just an old Stanley No. 4, tuned as best I can, to a new WoodRiver No. 5 and have been very pleased with the results. I’ve also laid my hands on a Veritas dovetail saw, very nice, as well as some Narex chisels, based on various recommendations. The chisels have been sharpened following the method using by Paul Sellers in his YouTube videos (I know that there will inevitably be some that have differing views to Paul but his method seemed to work for me).

Anyhow, the problem that I am coming up against is the use of knife walls when crosscutting. Paul’s, and others, videos show them using a combination or engineer’s square to mark across using a marking knife. The first cut is done gently and subsequent cuts more strongly. After that a chisel is used to chip out the initial wall before going on to use a chisel to deepen the wall.

My problem seems to be getting a sufficient depth of cut at the initial stages. In Paul’s videos, he seems to be able to cut down a couple of millimetres just using the marking knife. I’m finding this very difficult. I have a choice of marking knives. Years ago I used to use a Stanley knife. Then I was persuaded by something I read to buy a Japanese V-point marking knife

http://www.axminster.co.uk/japanese-vee ... ife-384008

which gets very good reviews but I find difficult to hold (my technique being wrong?)

My final purchase, based on something I read by our one and only Peter Sefton, was a scalpel and I bought a Swann Morton No. 3 handle with 10A blades. I find this, too, difficult to hold and press down hard; it always feels as if the blade is going to snap. Again, it might be my technique.

Part of the problem with my technique may be that when trying to cut hard, I am worried about the knife slipping and cutting my thumb which is holding the edge of the square.

Any advice on the correct way to go about using a marking knife would be gratefully received.

I had a similar problem. I found the Axminster/Japanese ones uncomfortable to hold, so I made my own. I had some 2.5 mm gauge plate (ground flat stock) and cut a piece to shape. Drilling the holes before hand ending it seemed like a good idea. Hardened and tempered (our domestic oven reached the right temp) and fitted with a hardwood handle fixed with aluminium rivets, it has sharpened up well and is easy to hold. If you want to make your own and need advice, just ask.

 

[BillHoughton]

I don't know if the X-Acto company retails its products on the U.K. Their knives were/are sold for modelmakers. One of the woodworking magazines did a marking knife review and the smallest X-Acto knife was among the best in the review! Replaceable blades, so you can choose a knife shape that fits your grip best. Here's an example of a similar tool, on a British website: A set, but you can likely find individual knives

Edit: I see Jacob beat me to it.

 

[mark w]

I bought this knife from Philly Planes DC Marking Knife
And I made the David charlesworth sharpening jig
Neat sharpening angles every time.