Magnacut - Open the Floodgates?

[D_W]

I'm a certified public accountant by profession, but I have a deep interest in Bose-Einstein condensate states in edge plasma.

Shall I share?

I did notice that Lake Erie is making their irons in a thinner version which might be a better fit for certain old planes. I don't know diddly about the steel, probably couldn't hone it with my kit anyway, but I thought it was a nice touch.

I got the thinner version.

I don't think irons like this have anything to offer "real woodworkers"(TM)

>>Bose-Einstein<<

What a corporate partnership. Atomic audiophiles.

I've got little exposure in this data collecting escapade, though - as long as it's good enough to resell with a clear conscience.

There is something about plain steel that sharpens on anything, grinds away faster than the nicks accumulate and that just works that is a bigger draw than rubbery, icy bits.

But I find the whole metallurgical bit novel - Larrin figured out how to prevent the chromium from getting out of the broth and it makes a really fine stainless steel that wears a little less long than would be expected.

That's probably valuable somewhere. I just don't think it has the same usefulness in woodworking as finding a good lumber source.

 

[Trafalgar]

I got the thinner version.

I don't think irons like this have anything to offer "real woodworkers"(TM)

>>Bose-Einstein<<

What a corporate partnership. Atomic audiophiles.

I've got little exposure in this data collecting escapade, though - as long as it's good enough to resell with a clear conscience.

There is something about plain steel that sharpens on anything, grinds away faster than the nicks accumulate and that just works that is a bigger draw than rubbery, icy bits.

But I find the whole metallurgical bit novel - Larrin figured out how to prevent the chromium from getting out of the broth and it makes a really fine stainless steel that wears a little less long than would be expected.

That's probably valuable somewhere. I just don't think it has the same usefulness in woodworking as finding a good lumber source.

Given all the posts about rust prevention (and various potions) on woodworking forums over the years, I think Lake Erie may be on to something with the stainless aspect of the irons.

 

[raffo]

Given all the posts about rust prevention (and various potions) on woodworking forums over the years, I think Lake Erie may be on to something with the stainless aspect of the irons.

You're right, that's one of the endless discussion topics in the forums: the waxes, the oils, the desiccants, the special cabinets, heating elements, etc., etc. One less thing to worry about if you get one of these irons.

 

[Jacob]

You're right, that's one of the endless discussion topics in the forums: the waxes, the oils, the desiccants, the special cabinets, heating elements, etc., etc. One less thing to worry about if you get one of these irons.

Can't say I worry about any of these things and I don't have a problem using my various planes, all with original blades, old and less old, except for one Hock and one Smoothcut, which are "different" but not in any significant way.
The discussions are endless because the problems are largely imaginary.

 

[D_W]

Given all the posts about rust prevention (and various potions) on woodworking forums over the years, I think Lake Erie may be on to something with the stainless aspect of the irons.

It may not do much for people using their tools on a regular basis, but imagine the possibilities with the market of people who like to imagine using their tools, and who don't like it so much when shelved tools rust.

 

[D_W]

Can't say I worry about any of these things and I don't have a problem using my various planes, all with original blades, old and less old, except for one Hock and one Smoothcut, which are "different" but not in any significant way.
The discussions are endless because the problems are largely imaginary.

Raffo is having a bit of fun with the nest builder / tool crowd.

There's a guy on a forum in the US (i'm sure there are many, but one who has particular disdain for me because my shop is messy) who often posts pictures of his shop, his grinding jigs, his tool care jigs, his angle cutting or planing jigs, and all manner of things and none of them so much has have even a smudge of gray or dust or scratches on them. It's really something. I'm not sure if he never uses them or if he literally scrapes or planes any dirt off of each of them each time they're used and then blows the shop out end to end like we used to do when I worked in a cabinet factory.

There are more guys like that than there are guys going balls to the wall with nothing but as--s and elbows showing while they get after it.

What this lake erie guy needs is someone with credibility to create perceived value (doesn't have to be real, perceived is all it takes) in the iron over something else that costs half as much and the nest builders will buy three while Charlie looks for a glue pot or a way to find buyers, or God forbid - high quality matched timbers.

 

[Trafalgar]

I live in a climate where it can be very cold -- well below freezing one day and in two days' time be 80* F with 90+ % humidity. The flash rust is a sight to behold.

It may not do much for people using their tools on a regular basis, but imagine the possibilities with the market of people who like to imagine using their tools, and who don't like it so much when shelved tools rust.

We can get really cold here (for us) with highs below freezing, and then in two days' time the wind will shift to out of the south and it'll be close to 80* with high humidity. The flash rust is a sight to behold. I had one garage shop that had no vapor barrier laid (built in the 1940s) and when this would happen the moisture would condense on the slab and there would be a solid eight inch of water all over it, inside the "shop" as it were.

 

[D_W]

I live in a climate where it can be very cold -- well below freezing one day and in two days' time be 80* F with 90+ % humidity. The flash rust is a sight to behold.

We can get really cold here (for us) with highs below freezing, and then in two days' time the wind will shift to out of the south and it'll be close to 80* with high humidity. The flash rust is a sight to behold. I had one garage shop that had no vapor barrier laid (built in the 1940s) and when this would happen the moisture would condense on the slab and there would be a solid eight inch of water all over it, inside the "shop" as it were.

I'm sure it wouldn't solve all of your problems, but for anyone else reading this - I have a shop that will do something not quite as drastic (halfway under ground, but very humid). It's > the 63% RH threshold regularly, but the swings aren't as fast as a freestanding building.

much of my trouble disappeared when I started using oilstones. It didn't seem like this was possible - that handling tools with a small amount of left over oil on the hands would leave enough of a barrier, but later looks under the microscope showed why - when you wipe oil off, you get maybe 75%. The next wipe with a clean area of rag, most of the rest, but still some left, and so on. One accidental wipe over a part of the tool with a little oil on and suddenly, it's everywhere again.

I don't have the temp swings, just cold snaps that cause my prized 16/4 beech blanks to crack on the ends sometimes, but do in the spring and fall the glaze of moisture on the floor sometimes.

If my shop was fully above ground as yours probably is, just the oil probably wouldn't be enough. Not having "good" power tools also removes a lot of fresh clean cast surfaces from my shop.

 

[Trafalgar]

David, I had a half a roll of paper towels on my sharpening bench (all oilstones for many years now) during one of these episodes and the roll almost looked like somebody held it under the kitchen faucet for several seconds. We'll have a cold snap, a drastic warm-up, then another cold front moves through -- the second one usually triggers tornadoes. It's not nearly as bad if the shop is on a slab that had a vapor barrier put down before the concrete was poured. That little layer of plastic is practically magical.

 

[D_W]

I messaged the guy who sells the 10V iron. 60 hardness. None of this is much use to folks in the UK!

the site with the 10V iron offers a 10% coupon immediately and there's no shipping cost, which results in a $45 plane iron.

62-64 would be nicer for what people are going to do with these, but I can tell the guy that when it arrives (I bought one).

Everything i've used that has a lot of vanadium develops a lot of planing resistance - I expect this will be similar, but if it's not defective, it'll be on ebay after I satisfy curiosity, just like the magnacut.

There's some opportunity here for one of these do all shops with waterjet, grinders, and a vacuum furnace to offer a whole array of these steels. They work a lot cheaper than boutique tool makers, but they lack the same kind of white collar "buy from your friends" vibe.

"we're all friends as long as you're buying from me!"

 

[D_W]

I see some questions about these irons - along with one tiring repeat that the australian iron may not be 10V and it's potentially a play on LV's V11?

10V isn't a new steel - why there's a need to accuse someone who says they're using 10V of riding on V11 coattails is beyond me - especially when the actual seller of the 10V stuff in australia confirmed to a buyer that it's "10V/A11".

Both names for the same steel.

One group hides the alloy, another guy states flat out what it is and he's accused of not using what he says he's using. Wow.

Charlie - flatness of these. I'll report, again, not lending credibility to them by aspect - this is an escapade driven by curiosity, not practicality. At any rate, these are steels that can be hardened in thin cross sections with plate and other hardening methods that don't yield much warping. O1 cannot be plate hardened, and below that yet, the water hardening steels require a very fast quench. We shouldn't see any significant warping in any of these, and they're ground post heat treat.

The real question is how coarsely the backs of the irons are ground, and if that's done with care. 10V is usually finished with a coarse grind because of the cost and time to grind.

I'm not reading any more about either steel so as not to be biased - powder metal steel usually has a strange failure shape at the edge. V11 in my chisel tests fared poorly because it doesn't seem to have a predominant grain direction from rolling, which shouldn't be a surprise. It's sintered powder that gets rolled, but some powder steels do take a dominant grain direction when they're rolled (3V does) which is a good thing for woodworking tools.

Diamonds are a practical must for all of these steels. Realistically, they're a good idea for V11. The barrier to entry for that is about $30 and a microbevel, but if it's not practical in the first place (none of these steels really are in my opinion, except for beginners who just don't yet believe that what they really need to do is get repetition sharpening and build speed), having more sharpening materials around isn't great.

The $30 fix in the US is an 8x3 milled steel two sided diamond hone from amazon ($21). These are good hones - they're cheap, because they wholesale from china FOB for $6-7 each and someone saved us from the woodworking retailers by just dumping a big crate of them periodically on amazon. they probably make a few dollars each, amazon does the work, and we get them for $21 instead of $50-$100 from "our friends".

the other end of the sharpening after a secondary bevel is created is just finishing it on 1 micron diamond lapdiary power ($8 shipping included on ebay).

Add tax, and I guess I'm closer to $31 for most people.

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I reserve the right to complain about how much of a pain these are to use in practical situations, especially once they start to take on nicks from real use.

I did that with V11 already, though. Great stuff in a test. Intolerable for someone working by hand from rough lumber if even a stock stanley iron is around.


I don't think honing nicks out of irons will be much of a problem for people who aren't using them, though, and that's the real market now, anyway.

This lake erie guy really needs someone on his side who doesn't know much about steel but wants everyone to believe they do.

David Eckert probably deserves a friend somewhere who will at least believe him, too, when he actually states outright what steel he's using, instead of being referred to as knowing nothing about steel by a guy who told the buying public that V11 was A11 steel.

Way off.

 

[Trafalgar]

Anxious to hear your thoughts after putting them through trials.