lie Nielson Brinze no 4 Plane Advise sought

[bugbear]

The copper in bronze produces verdigris when it oxidises ... very slowly over years and with handling, a patina develops than nullifies any corrosion.

This is also true (at least in the kitchen) of iron/steel where knives and pans are vulnerable to "rust" until they have a nice, even, dark "patina".

Think of the colour of an old French cooks knife. It's quite shiny, but it ain't silvery.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

system was slow - double post, sorry

 

[Spindle]

Hi

Some 'facts' as I understand them.

All cast iron forms a skin as it cools, this skin can have very hard inclusions caused by rapid chilling of the casting or adherence of casting material debris, these are usually found in isolated areas such as corners or projections. Their depth may be in the order of 0.050". During machining of the casting these hard spots are normally removed - if they were left in place on a plane sole I would expect them to become apparent as shiny areas during use, not something I've experienced, but then I'm no expert.

Cast iron does not age harden, some types increase in tensile strength in the immediate period after production but there is no change in hardness.

All metals corrode to some degree under atmospheric conditions - Iron and it's ferrous alloys are the only ones that rust.

Bronze is considerably softer than cast iron so if a cast iron plane picks up usage marks during it's life then you can expect a bronze one to mark up quicker. (Was the plane bought to use or display?)

Regards Mick

 

[Jacob]

......
Cast iron is dirty and brittle and cheap. It's hard but not tough. ......

Thats why it's good for planes

Wood will scratch it as we all know

Yes but it's the occasional nail etc which is the real problem - scratches shallow and barely noticeable on my older planes , deep and obvious on my Clifton and Veritas. Not that I'm bothered except for the resale value - I only indulge in novelty planes for the experience,* with the intention of passing them on a.s.a.p.

*in case I'm missing something. By and large they don't seem worth the money.

 

[Vann]

I thought Clifton used ductile cast iron!

From the horses mouths:

Lee Valley:- With the exception of our NX60 premium block plane, all Veritas® plane bodies are fully stress-relieved ductile cast iron, which is dimensionally stable and takes hard knocks without cracking.
So Veritas are "ductile cast iron".

Lie-Nielsen:- What's so special about the Ductile Iron used for all your iron body tools?
Ductile Iron, also called Nodular, is a specific formula iron alloy, specially processed to produce castings of great strength, approaching that of structural steel, and ductility or elasticity. For the woodworker this means that the tool will not break if dropped on the cement floor, something that happens all too often.
I had heard good things about Ductile Iron and liked the way it machined, so I decided to see how tough our planes are. I took a machined No. 5 body casting out in the shop and threw it up to the 14-foot ceiling. The casting bounced on the cement floor but was not damaged. I did this many times but only succeeded in dinging it up.
Then I laid it on its side on the floor and went after the unsupported top edge of the side with a 10-pound sledge hammer, putting some effort behind it. It did bend. A little. These castings will not break. I guarantee it.
So Lie-Nielsen are "Ductile Iron, also called Nodular"

Clico:- We put our casting through a rigorous heat treatment process to remove any traces of tension caused during the casting process and to ensure that the grey iron is “inert” and capable of absorbing shocks (eg if dropped on a hard floor).
Surely grey cast iron will break if dropped or knocked?
There are many grades of grey iron, each one specifying the metallurgical properties achievable including resistance to breakage. By choosing the right grade for our purpose and then by heat treating the castings appropriately, we believe that we have achieved the optimum in stability and strength. We have tested the strength of our castings by dropping them from a height of 15 feet (5 metres) onto a concrete floor, with no breakage occurring. It is our contention that any accident likely to break our castings would cause so much distortion in malleable (ductile) castings as to render a Plane made of malleable (ductile) iron as unusable as if it had broken.
So Clifton are heat treated "grey iron"

I guess it's either the grade of grey cast iron, or the heat treatment, that makes the Clifton sole more susceptible to scratching than Records and Stanleys of yore.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Jacob]

Interesting!
Seems a better idea to make them from harder stuff and avoid dropping them on concrete floors. :lol:

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Interesting!
Seems a better idea to make them from harder stuff and avoid dropping them on concrete floors. :lol:

Maybe - but if you accidentally knocked one off the bench and cracked it (lots seem to turn up like that at bootfairs and Ebay) you might change your mind! :lol:

PS. If you want scratch resistant AND lack of brittleness, how about stainless steel? Grade selection would be important - there are lots of grades of stainless, some harder, some more corrosion resistant and some more workable than others - but I bet you could make superb planes from it.

Well, Karl Holtey does, anyway.

 

[AndyT]

It's an interesting discussion.
I guess it helps explain why brass or bronze bodied planes are sometimes found with a sole made of steel (if they are of dovetailed construction) or with a thin layer of steel sweated on (if they start as a casting) - this would give a good combination of a tough, corrosion resistant body with a scratch and wear resistant sole.

 

[bugbear]

Metallurgy is complex.

All metals have ductility, malleablility, hardness, stiffness, elasticity etc, to some extent.

The properties comes partially from the chemical components of the alloy (and all metals outside a lab are alloys) and from the subsequent processes and treatment.

The fun is finding an alloy/process that you can afford that gives the properties you want. Just to make life more fun, several of the properties are antithetical e.g. hardness and ductility.

If there were a cheap alloy/process that gave all the properties wanted in a plane, everyone would use it.

But there isn't.

So the different manufacturers have to choose from the wide spectrum available, according to their (and their customers') priorities.

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Metallurgy is complex.

All metals have ductility, malleablility, hardness, stiffness, elasticity etc, to some extent.

The properties comes partially from the chemical components of the alloy (and all metals outside a lab are alloys) and from the subsequent processes and treatment.

The fun is finding an alloy/process that you can afford that gives the properties you want. Just to make life more fun, several of the properties are antithetical e.g. hardness and ductility.

If there were a cheap alloy/process that gave all the properties wanted in a plane, everyone would use it.

But there isn't.

So the different manufacturers have to choose from the wide spectrum available, according to their (and their customers') priorities.

BugBear

Spot on.

In engineering design, especially in demanding situations, 'materials selection' can be a tortuous and demanding nightmare.

 

[swb58]

I've got a highly desirable Milbro aluminium plane. No rust and it automatically marks high spots in the work piece. :wink:

 

[bugbear]

I've got a highly desirable Milbro aluminium plane. No rust and it automatically marks high spots in the work piece. :wink:

IIRC even the handle is ally on that!

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

I've got a highly desirable Milbro aluminium plane. No rust and it automatically marks high spots in the work piece. :wink:

:lol: :lol:

I do find it amusing that for completist Stanley collectors, the rare aluminium models are highly prized and highly priced, while in the rest of the world ali planes barely fetch their scrap value. I bought a little aluminium chariot plane on ebay once, not quite believing that it wasn't steel. It's ali and it's ugly.

 

[MMUK]

Rust is a term for oxidised iron. Bronze will oxidise. It is just semantics to discuss whether bronze rusts or not. It would be more interesting whether bronze oxidises slower?

Rust, oxidisation, whatever. It amounts to the same thing - **** you don't want on your tools. :mrgreen:

 

[Vann]

If you want scratch resistant AND lack of brittleness, how about stainless steel? Grade selection would be important - there are lots of grades of stainless, some harder, some more corrosion resistant and some more workable than others - but I bet you could make superb planes from it.

Well, Karl Holtey does, anyway.

As do Veritas with the DX60 and, I think, their miniature plane series.

Another thought on why modern iron planes are more susceptible to scratching - one thing all three manufactures have in common is that they heat treat their castings (L-N & Veritas as part of the "ductile" process, Clifton to de-stress). In the past Record and Qualcast (the foundry that cast both Stanley and later Record plane bodies) seasoned their castings by storing them for ~ a year.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Benchwayze]

Let's put it this way. enough trees have been felled with bronze tools, so it can't have been all that soft. And the more the tool is used, the less it will oxidise/rust/ etc.. 8)

John

 

[deema]

Here is the if ending planes sole. I had the toe on the plywood and the nose on the oak. Hence the diagonal scratch pattern. They are fairly deep.