Lidl Japanese Saw

[woodbloke66]

as for the Gyokucho: it's the dog's. it's unbelievably sharp and I love using it. apparently the brand is the standard one used by Japanese carpenters... it's not imported to the UK any more

They are available at Workshop Heaven

Yep, I've used them from WH for years. I splashed out the other day and bought one of the handmade, super fine dozuki's for dovetailing; I also got hold of a couple of other hand made saws - Rob

 

[richnfamous]

I have one of the Lidl saws with 2 sets of teeth (rip & crosscut). It makes a smooth cut but I find it very difficult to cut plumb, a problem I do not have with a western style saw. This could (probably is) down to my poor technique but it is enough of a problem that I rarely use the saw. I have never used any other "Japanese" saw so I don't know if this problem is because of the change to a pull saw or if there is some other problem with this saw. I just concluded that I should stick to western-style saws.

there's a specific technique with a pull saw: first, cut across to establish your front-back square cut. then either drop the handle or reposition the work to cut down the line on the side you can see. reposition so you can cut the other side in the same way. the uncut part of the kerf now has a 'switchback' shape. you can now cut the remaining waste out and the two partial kerfs will guide you

I find it's helpful to hold the handle at the end rather than close to the blade as that reduces the angular deflection for a given movement

have a look here: it shows what I mean (but he should sort that wobbly workbench!)

https://youtu.be/nPSOfa3wMiE

there's a further very neat trick that ensures that the bottom of the kerf is flat

https://youtu.be/p5KWBGBWYPI

 

[Just4Fun]

there's a specific technique with a pull saw: first, cut across to establish your front-back square cut. then either drop the handle or reposition the work to cut down the line on the side you can see. reposition so you can cut the other side in the same way. the uncut part of the kerf now has a 'switchback' shape. you can now cut the remaining waste out and the two partial kerfs will guide you

OK. Thanks for the tip, but I am surprised that you regard that as a technique that is specific to a pull saw. I use much the same sequence of operations when using a western-style saw, especially if I have to rip cut a longer piece.

have a look here: it shows what I mean (but he should sort that wobbly workbench!)

https://youtu.be/nPSOfa3wMiE

The problem I have with the pull saw would be the cut he describes at 45 seconds in to the video, the area he shades in red. My version of this cut would almost always wander off the to my right when I try to cut down the side facing me. When using a western-style saw I can get the line I want by dropping my hand. If I drop my hand more than a little with my pull saw my kerf tends to widen out at lower levels, obliterating the line I want to cut to.

 

[jonbee56]

Just a quick thread update. These saws are at Lidl again, bought one yesterday and I’ll see how it compares with my Gyokucho.

 

[Bodgers]

sorry for the late reply...

I've seen two types of japanese-style saw at Lidl: one a ryoba-style with a blade length of about 30cm and another about 18cm, the latter coming with two blades of 17 and 22 tpi

I've also used an Irwin 'ryoba' and have a Gyokucho ryoba

Lidl: the large one is a bit disappointing. the 'rip' side is rubbish with teeth nothing like a japanese ripsaw - and I don't use that side. the crosscut side is OK but feels clumsy. I use it for bits of wood I don't care too much about and on site where it might be damaged by hidden nails etc, such as floorboards. it's not up to much but for £7, hey...

the smaller one is a different story entirely. it's only got crosscut teeth but they seem to have no set, so it makes an excellent flush-cut saw. it's very sharp indeed and is very durable. I've had one for 18 months or so and have only used the 17tpi blade but it still cuts very well indeed. it's a great little saw: so good that the next time they turned up, I bought two more, just in case. a friend uses an 'Ice Bear' (aka Z-saw?) flushcut saw that cost £25 and it's not as good as this one. the cut is so incredibly smooth that you'd swear it had been planed - probably due to the lack of set on the teeth allied with the japanese tooth profile

the only criticism I have of the smaller one is the handle. I'd prefer a longer one as I find that helps with accuracy but it's not a big issue

the Irwin 'ryoba': pretty rubbish. it became dull very quickly - I used mainly the crosscut side - and the handle feels very cheap. the rip side is still good but the crosscut side lost a couple of teeth for no apparent reason. I use it for ripping 'on site' so it's still got a use but it's simply not worth buying

as for the Gyokucho: it's the dog's. it's unbelievably sharp and I love using it. apparently the brand is the standard one used by Japanese carpenters... it's not imported to the UK any more but you can get them via that big auction site. just remember there's an import tarriff

get the small Lidl one. it's great and you won't regret it. for £7 it's a real bargain

I have just bought a folding Gyokucho saw and I completely agree. The quality is astounding. I was planning to post a thread about this later, I was salivating over it soo much

Yes, the Lidl might physically cut a piece of wood, and if that's what you want, fine, but they really don't match up to what the true Japanese saws offer.

 

[jonbee56]

I suggest that the current Lidl large saw is a good introduction to those of us that are institutionalised into a western (push to cut) method.

I’ve used it this afternoon and it’s...ok.. typically you get what you pay for.

As it’s toughened teeth, I will use it until it’s blunt, then cut the teeth of it with a grinder and file in new teeth

 

[transatlantic]

I love my japanese saws (3 piece set from Rutlands)

My only issue is with the rip side of the Ryoba saw. I find it very difficult to use. Unless I get it at the exact right angle (about 45deg) there is a lot of vibration and jumping rather than cutting.

I don't have a western rip saw, so nothing to compare it to really.

 

[Just4Fun]

Yes, the Lidl might physically cut a piece of wood, and if that's what you want, fine, but they really don't match up to what the true Japanese saws offer.

I suggest that the current Lidl large saw is a good introduction to those of us that are institutionalised into a western (push to cut) method.

I’ve used it this afternoon and it’s...ok.. typically you get what you pay for.

Interesting perspectives. I am definitely "institutionalised into a western (push to cut) method" but I bought a Lidl Japanese saw a while back as a test. I couldn't adapt at all. My cuts all veered off in a way they don't when I use a western-style saw. In the end I gave the saw away. I am now left with the puzzle of whether it was my own failing or would I succeed with a better Japanese saw?

 

[Bm101]

Lil' saw is amazeballs.
Big saw don't bother. It's shi*e.

Justforfun.
Remove the pointy fore finger.
Wrap it round the handle with the other 3 little pigs.
Sawing from the (straight) forearm, not the shoulder.
Adjust stance and aggression.

All of a sudden, you are Hattori Hanzō.
[-o<

 

[Bodgers]

Yes, the Lidl might physically cut a piece of wood, and if that's what you want, fine, but they really don't match up to what the true Japanese saws offer.

I suggest that the current Lidl large saw is a good introduction to those of us that are institutionalised into a western (push to cut) method.

I’ve used it this afternoon and it’s...ok.. typically you get what you pay for.

Interesting perspectives. I am definitely "institutionalised into a western (push to cut) method" but I bought a Lidl Japanese saw a while back as a test. I couldn't adapt at all. My cuts all veered off in a way they don't when I use a western-style saw. In the end I gave the saw away. I am now left with the puzzle of whether it was my own failing or would I succeed with a better Japanese saw?

Try a Dozuki (with a spine). For me there was no going back after that, I haven't used a western saw that I could get the same sort of precision and thin kerf line.

In the end these things are all personal preference I suppose.

 

[Osvaldd]

I buy vegetables and meat at Lidl, not saws.

 

[jonbee56]

I’ve got to agree. I actually went in for some salmon and yoghurt and came out with a washing line, Japanese saw, some hot glue and tacos..... oh & some cat food.

 

[Racers]

I picked one up last night, the Lidl in Carrington Nottingham had 5-6 left if any one wants one.
Not used in anger yet but it looks good, took some getting out of the packet!

Pete

 

[JoeSheffer]

These are back in Lidl tomorrow!

 

[D_W]

side comment here about the actual cost of japanese saws vs. what they're distributed to for english speakers.

I like the Z crosscuts (Z8, and I think what I have now is Z 265). Admittedly, I don't use them much. I already have a handle from the 8 and ordered replacement 265-HI blades last year - 24 of them (which is like a retailer's pack with the blades bundled shrunk in packs of 6).

These were sold at a price equivalent of $5.45 each. I have a feeling they are about that cost in japan at retail, as someone went to the trouble of listing them on an auction site and paying auction fees to sell them for that.

The idea that this type of saw could be $30 in the west is our doing, they're quickly (and well) made in japan by machines as a basic hardware store/consumer product.

What do they cost if shipping is included if you buy one? I didn't go look it up, but recall prices like $7.50. I suspect large packs like I bought are driven up a little bit vs. the individuals (yes, 5.45 is less than 7.50, but that includes shipping plus auction fees for a japan made Z brand replacement blade).

 

[D_W]

re: the comment above about gyochuko being "the" brand. It's "a" brand. Z is just as good as gyochuko with the fine saws, and better with crosscut saws and ryobas.

But both aren't very expensive in japan - they get marked up at distribution and retail in the west.

The older saws that are full hardened plate can be expensive (some are also still distributed to us in the west at great markup), but if you're willing to play around, you can usually find used semi-handmade (as in, made in a factory with some hand straightening, etc) hardened plate saws for a few dollars each, and then you can treat yourself to doing whatever you want with the teeth.

These 12 saws above were $19 total. I'm sure it cost about $30 more to get them all shipped here, but I wanted to have some saws that I could sharpen and modify. They're all sharpened crosscut with teeth that would otherwise look like rip teeth (as in, they have fleam and will be aggressive - this kind of saw is useful to me more than another slower cutting saw with tall teeth that leaves a very fine edge that will be hidden).

The tooth profile on them with fleam means they can all be turned into crosscut saw pretty easily.

One thing I found talking to stan covington (and he sent me a saw to prove it) is that if you want a saw for hardwoods from japan, it will end up looking and feeling in tooth profile and plate thickness more like a western saw. The hardness will be knocked back a bit to make sure that the saw is tough, and then you can horse around with it just like a western saw. The one that I had was tempered brown (stan had two custom made), with teeth slightly more aggressive than you'd find on a disston saw but shorter stouter profile like that - it couldn't have been broken by anyone who didn't run over it with a car.

That saw was custom made and monstrously expensive (it was entirely hand made, too), so it moved on to the west coast to someone who was looking to pay what it cost to have a saw like that made, but I learned a lot from that. Having later bought saws made in japan for professionals and some heavier saws for coarser work, it's clear that 1) stan knows what he's talking about when it comes to what's actually on the ground there, 2) there are some delicate saws of older types that are less forgiving than the Z and gyochuko types, but most of what you'll find in the auctions is more like the saws shown above - saws that would be more sensible as a permanent tool without exotic teeth. These are by flex just a bit harder than a western saw, but would still be resharpenable with a simple feather file, and they won't lose teeth to wood that has exceptionally hard latewood rings.

 

[D_W]

(long story short, there's no reason that a $7 saw sold through a grocery store can't be a good one, as the good ones in japan aren't much more, anyway. Usually what I see with chinese or european saws vs. Z and gyochuko is that the teeth are slightly less refined. ..

If you don't know where to put these saws, drill a hole through the end of the handle and hang them on a nail - the department store saws have unhardened plates and won't be hurt by falling off of the nail.