Ledge |& Brace gates.

[Lazurus]

Just a quick query, is there a joint for the ledge and brace or a simple butt joint, I read somewhere about chamfering the joining pieces for a neater appearance?

Any advice.

 

[Trevanion]

Just a quick query, is there a joint for the ledge and brace or a simple butt joint, I read somewhere about chamfering the joining pieces for a neater appearance?

Any advice.

Most traditional ones are just a snug fit butt joint between the braces and clench nailed in place just like the braces. Most people screw and plug the ledges and braces these days though, I personally run two grooves 10x10 down the ledges and braces so I can put the screws into the grooves and cover them up with a piece of decorative beading glued into the 10x10 groove. I always put quite a heavy chamfer around them, but it isn't necessary.

Adding joints just complicates things and can actually make it worse if it's not done properly, I saw a house full of ledge and brace doors as the internal doors recently and the carpenter that made them had trenched out all the boards so that the ledges would recess into the boards for some reason. All the doors ended up twisting and bowing because of the removal of the timber on the boards.

 

[worn thumbs]

Its a bit too dark to get a picture now but my gate has the braces partly set in to the ledges to add a more positive location than just the fastenings in shear.Maybe not totally necessary,but it does no harm.

 

[worn thumbs]

I am hopefully including an image of my gate.I hope its clear that about a third of the width of the brace has been left square to resist the thrust of the gate as gravity encourages it to sag.I know it needs a coat of something and in the spring it will get done.You can see where my neighbour's old cat used it as a ladder,not that I minded he was a nice old thing and I miss him.At the left hand edge there is a doubling strip that some people might not need if they use T-hinges but I used butts, as used on the previous gate, as they don't leave screw heads exposed and potentially removed by unwelcome intruders equipped with a screwdriver.

 

[Lazurus]

That's great thank you

 

[DTR]

Please accept my apologies for the slight diversion, but what when the gate is framed, ledged and braced? Any difference then? If memory serves, the ends of the brace are let into the rails like in Worn Thumb's excellent example. Would any experts care to confirm that though?

 

[Lazurus]

I have done frames gates previously and a standard mortice and tenon suffices for the frame and rails, however in this case I need to keep the weight to a minimum hence no frame on this set.

 

[Doug71]

Please accept my apologies for the slight diversion, but what when the gate is framed, ledged and braced? Any difference then? If memory serves, the ends of the brace are let into the rails like in Worn Thumb's excellent example. Would any experts care to confirm that though?

Quite often the braces are just cut to fit into the corners of the frame but slightly offset so there is maybe 3" of the brace against the rails and 1" of the brace running against the stile.

If the gate was wide and the above meant the braces would be at too shallow angle sometimes you get the braces cut into the bottom corners of the frame (as I said above) at the hinge side but then cut like worn thumbs example at their top end where they hit the rails.

 

[Lazurus]

I am getting a bit windy now as to whether this type of construction is going to be strong enough. The gate sizes are 46 wide x 77 high - softwood build to be side hinged x 3 on each door (strap and pin hinges) any thoughts as to whether should be fully framed?

 

[DTR]

Please accept my apologies for the slight diversion, but what when the gate is framed, ledged and braced? Any difference then? If memory serves, the ends of the brace are let into the rails like in Worn Thumb's excellent example. Would any experts care to confirm that though?

Quite often the braces are just cut to fit into the corners of the frame but slightly offset so there is maybe 3" of the brace against the rails and 1" of the brace running against the stile.

If the gate was wide and the above meant the braces would be at too shallow angle sometimes you get the braces cut into the bottom corners of the frame (as I said above) at the hinge side but then cut like worn thumbs example at their top end where they hit the rails.

Thanks for the reply. When I built my garden gates I cut a stub tenon on both ends of the braces. In hindsight I've wondered if it was overkill, and I think you just confirmed it for me. In any case, the gates are as square as the day I built them, but the concrete posts they're hinged to have sagged inwards, so that now the gates pinch at the top :roll:

 

[will1983]

Is this for a customer or a personal project?

If it was me doing it for a customer I would frame it to minimise the risk of a call back and the associated damage to reputation that would cause but if it was for myself I wouldn't bother as I know I can easily fix it if the lock side drops a little.

 

[worn thumbs]

Mine can't drop unless the screws rust through and if that happens,the whole thing becomes a pile of slats.As would a fully framed gate.

 

[user22161]

Mine can't drop unless the screws rust through and if that happens,the whole thing becomes a pile of slats.As would a fully framed gate.

I find pocket hole screws on the hidden side and pu glue work fine for me - so far. As a matter of interest, how do most fix boards, nail or screw? Also, how many? To avoid cupping I've used 2 nails across each board on one gate and 2 screws on another one but am now told there should only be one screw or nail in the centre of each board.

 

[Lazurus]

I WENT WITH LAP JOINTS IN THE END, THE FRAMES ARE NOW MADE SO I TO AN INTERESTED IN THE BEST WAS TO ATTACH THE BOARDS, CUPPING AND SEASONAL MOVEMENT ARE CONCERNS.

 

[Lazurus]

Sorry didn't mean to shout!!!

 

[DTR]

As a matter of interest, how do most fix boards, nail or screw? Also, how many? To avoid cupping I've used 2 nails across each board on one gate and 2 screws on another one but am now told there should only be one screw or nail in the centre of each board.

Nails, two per board, diagonally opposed. Nails will apparently allow for some wood movement by flexing a little.