Kreg Pocket hole jigs

[OscarG]

Another vote here for the Kreg jig. I bought a K4 one earlier this year, only used it for "shop" furniture but find it's excellent.

It's bit fiddly for right-angle joins, you need that right-angle clamp they make, keep meaning to get it.

For simple joins that don't need to be the prettiest I think it's a great bit of kit.

 

[AES]

I also got a couple of those Kreg right angle clamps. Again not cheap, but well made, and comlete with a "Mole grips-type" adjuster, and can (is actually) used for many other jobs in the shop. I don't regret buying them - and my wallet does NOT "runneth over"!

Edit for P.S. My clamps are not those "Kreg specials" with the "spike" at one end to fit into a pocket hole while doing right angles - mine just have a flat & a right angle pad on each side, hence their use for many other clamping jobs. But they also work OK on "normal" right angles. It is BTW, a pity for me that Kreg have no dealers in Switzerland. I use either Germany or UK, and stuff like clamps are of course heavy for postage costs. But once bought, the high postage cost soon fades into memory, and you don't need millions of them (or I don't anyway). Like the jig, they should last a lifetime.

 

[Mike Jordan]

The power router must be the most important advance for the small joinery business since I started as an apprentice. The first one I got to use was a one horsepower machine from a company called Centec. The boss of the firm payed £100 for it. Joiners were payed £12.10 a week then so eight weeks pay! Stair string trenching payed for it in no time, prior to the hand held router, strings were trenched by hand and took hours of tedious work. Today's prices must make routers the the Best Buy ever. Expensive jigs are available all manner of jobs these days, hinge sinking, lock fitting, etc. In most instances ten minutes and a bit of scrap timber will work just as well .

Stair trenching jig currently selling at well over £100. And hinge sinking jig.
Mike.

 

[Pord]

AES, I absolutely understand your cynicism to the apparent money-spinning nature of the Kreg PH jig - special and expensive screws, plugs, clamps etc. But I have made countless pocket holes with nothing other than a Kreg mini jig, which came with the bit and cost £17. As I said before, I only use standard wood screws (with a long screwdrill bit) and a bog standard speed clamp (or sash clamp for bigger pieces).

In the time to set up a router, or hand carve pocket holes, I can have numerous consistent pocket holes cut and screwed.

Not trying to convert you, just want to let people know that all the Kreg add-ons are simply not necessary.

 

[OscarG]

When you say "standard wood screws" do you mean pan-head types or what I would could "normal" i.e. tapered counter-sunk type screws?

 

[AES]

I obviously did not make myself clear Pord, sorry.

NIL cynicism on the Kreg jig here from me, on the contrary! I'm very pleased with my K4, but if I'd have known of the existence of the mini Kreg when I bought my K4 I would probably have bought the mini instead.

Overall though I consider the K4 complete kit as good value for money (particularly in view of its likely longevity) so IMO, though not cheap it certainly was value for money. And BTW, I definitely said "use scraps of dowel" when referring to filling holes (when necessary) above. IMO the Kreg special plugs really are "taking the mickey" (price wise).

But sorry if I wasn't clear before.

Edit for P.S. Re screws. I do NOT agree with the use of "normal" screws if "normal" means countersunk head screws - not even with washers. Though the Kreg screws are nice (apart from their cost!) personally I only use round head (or pan head) screws, paying attention to coarse or fine pitch, according to the wood type (as per the leaflet that came with the Kreg kit). To those screws, which of course are flat under the head, not angled as countersunk head screws are, I ALWAYS add suitable washers (tight push fit into the hole). Such screws, plus washers, still work out cheaper than Kreg's special screws, AND are much easier to get hold of here.

 

[novocaine]

I stick a washer on the back of a countersink screw Oscar. think I paid a quid for 500.

 

[Pord]

Understood, AES! No need to apologise.

Yes, I use standard screws (the countersink type) with no washer. Works perfectly fine, even in the 12mm ply I used to build my Paulk workbench.

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi
There is no controversy in the minds of competent woodworkers regarding the use of pocket hole jigs of any brand. They are largely useless, just a catch penny aimed at the wallets of the inexperienced. They try to make it look as if quality joints can be made with no skill of any kind. Pocket screwing can be done using a gouge, chisel, and drill. All in a matter of minutes. Uses for which the method is really suited are very rare. It would be better to tell the forum members what joint you wish to achieve and allowing them to advise you. There are lots of competent woodworkers on this site at all levels of expertise. The woodworking world has quite a few makers of "wonder tools "that are worthless and only remove cash from the unwary..
Mike.

Mike...

In the nineteen-sixties, I made a 6 foot sideboard from veneered block-board. My skills weren't so good then. My tools consisted of hand tools only (I even had to lay the sheets down in my back yard on 2x2s, and cut them out, on my knees with a tenon saw. I literally had just the basics. I assembled the carcass on an idigbo frame, all put together using pocket holes (NOT with a jig, because for home use, such things were unknown then.)

So I drilled angled holes with my Stanley hand drill and put the frame together that way. The job held together until about two years ago, when I finally decided the draw-runners had worn so much it wasn't worth repairing them. The construction was otherwise solid, and I cut my hand-dovetailing teeth on the four drawers too. (It was evident which drawers I made first and last!) I don't need to use a pocket hole jig, but I do now and again. Good for man-made boards on table tops, using screws that can move a little. The OP could make one at home, from a small piece of oak, or other true hard wood. Yes the small jig works quite well, and I certainly wouldn't discourage any one using one. If that's all one can do at present then more power to the elbow. As you learn you'll probably outgrow the jig, but they are still a useful tool for quick utility jobs. (I always back them up with glue when I do use them mind.) I am not doing much at all now, but I still have convenience tools and use them. Like the Domino. :ho2 So I wouldn't say PHJs are 'largely useless.' Expensive for what they are, but they have a place; depends on what you make and how much experience you have.

If the jig starts you woodworking, that's the main thing. If you are at all interested, as most of us are, you will seek to learn. And enjoy the journey. I have enjoyed my journey for sure.

Regards

John

 

[Mike Jordan]

Hi John
I think that we must agree to disagree about the jig but certainly not about the process of constantly learning about woodworking. As mentioned I would encourage anyone just starting out to invest in a power router rather than a gadget that guides you to drilling a hole. As shown above the router will allow another method of fitting pocket screws and also make scores of other tasks possible as well.
Some time ago my son, who is also an apprentice trained woodworker, purchased a good quality biscuit jointer on the grounds that it would prove useful. We tried it out and made a few practise joints and I knocked out a carrying case to store it together with the consumables required.
It's been stored in various places in the workshop and is currently up in the loft above,
neither of us has used it at all. The truth is that there is always a quicker, more appropriate method of doing the job using my standard machines. I think it's been about ten years now and it looks unlikely that we will ever wear it out!
On the other hand I visited the workshop of a fellow worker over thirty years back and found him fitting hinges on window lights using a battery screwdriver and cross head screws. There was a certain amount of ribbing, and enquiries about what was stopping him using a pump screwdriver like the rest of us. In a few weeks I was using the same gear, battery power now rules drilling and screw driving and my pump screwdriver is now a curiosity.
Regards
Mike.

 

[Lonsdale73]

Something pocket holes build really well - especially for beginners - is confidence. I'd love to be able to cut perfect dovetails or mortice and tenon jobs but for the most part the object is not mastering an art but making something I have an immediate need for.

One of the first things I bought for my workshop was a 'heavy duty' workbench. HD it most certainly wasn't but by using pocket holes I was able to beef it up considerably. That gave me the confidence to try building my own bench from scratch which was far more robust than the bought one. Next one was better still and I'm hoping the one I'm working on now will be better again.

A lot of the American woodworkers on youtube make extensive use of pocket holes - April Wilkerson appears to have made a career out of it! - and while purists might argue it's not woodworking there's no denying it can be effective.

 

[thomashenry]

I bought the Kreg R3 a few years ago for £30. Used it to build my entire kitchen. I was a beginner at the time and it was ideal. These days I've moved onto real joinery, but there's no doubt it has a place.

 

[Benchwayze]

I've never used the small pocket-hole jig, but I believe it works in much the same way as the normal jig. There is also a larger model for heavy joinery, so someone must have confidence in the method.

For home use, in certain circumstances, it's a good solution, so if you think it will serve for what you want, then buy one. For functional, serviceable items it's as valid ad Dominos or dowels.
If you want to use trad methods, then the existence of pocket hole screws shouldn't bother you.

The technique has been around for decades; I recall a kitchen table at home (1940s) that had the top fixed by pocket-hole screws. It was utility furniture, so I would say they were machine made holes! (As opposed to a gouge mallet and drill.)

Good Luck

John (hammer)

 

[Eric The Viking]

Kreg's added value was putting a system together, I think, meaning a well-thought-out jig, machined drill for the purpose, and sensible selection of woodscrews. If I use it and follow the instructions regarding settings for stock thickness, etc, I can be pretty sure the joint will be as strong as it can be.

But that's the point, too: I think they might stretch the idea beyond sensible use. "You can" doesn't mean "you should" do some of the things advocated. There are a lot of tests out there that consistently show pocket holes are weaker than other sorts of joinery, and I'd stay away from using them as load-bearing components, as screws will loosen over time.

That said, I find my K4 kit jolly useful. In things like face frames and fitted cabinets, although the screws are part of the structure, they're not massively load bearing, which is fine.

 

[Benchwayze]

Quite agree Eric. You can just means you can!

My 'go-to' method for face frames and utility doors used to be the Woden dowelling Jig. I tried to convert mine to metric, in the 70s, but it was a failure and the casting broke, reducing its use to a single dowel; which meant moving the jig to get a two-dowel joint.

I have since managed to find a used replacement, and still use it for quick doors in pine or poplar.
It works as it always has done, perfectly. A strong, accurate jig that is all you'd ever need for the purpose. Once you mark the position of the joints you want, you can make a four or even six-dowel joint in a wide rail, just by moving the jig along the rail. You can also use the jig for aligning continuous 'rubbed' joints for table tops etc. I found I used mainly the 3/8" size dowels, but the jig has sets of bushes for joints from 1/4"up to 3/8"; (or was it 1/2"?) Anyhow it's the best dowelling jig I ever used and it didn't 'creep', as the Record jig was wont to do.


The problem today is finding 3/8" dowels, so I bought a dowel plate, and just reduce metric dowels to fit. All I need now is a supplier that will sell dowels by the 1000! Then I might just have enough to last me out! :lol:

If anyone is interested :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from ... g&_sacat=0

Beware: The unboxed jig looks like it is missing the hardened steel bushes. Not much good without them

John (hammer)

 

[AES]

I must say that used "sensibly", I find my Kreg K4 both invaluable and very well made. I wish I had known about these things sooner, when building up the MG Midget kids pedal car project (see "Longest Ever ...... ?" write up now in progress in the Project section here).

But I do dislike the Kreg screws (both in terms of price and - here anyway - relatively poor availability) but unlike some other members here I have never tried the idea of using a "normal" CS or RH screw plus washer.

I'm not so sure (despite tests I've seen) that Kreg joints are weaker than, say, dowel joints, but to me the idea of substituting normal screws with the proper screw is just a poor and potentially weaker "engineering" solution, sorry. Perhaps these tests showing weaker joints didn't use the proper screws? Dunno.

The other thing I don't like about Kreg's own screws is those "stupid" Robertson square drive heads. They cam out FAR too easily (even with the official Kreg driver bit). I know Eric (the Viking) likes these, and Eric, I've seen you post before that these (silly IMO) heads are found in aviation. I do NOT want to start a "fight" here, but must say that in my whole aviation career (started 1961, ended Dec 2014), throughout that time I've never seen a square drive screw/bolt head on any aeroplane. But all my work has been with military or "big" aircraft, never with small, GA (sports/private) machines, so perhaps they appear there? Dunno.

Anyway, thread drift, sorry. IMO, used for its proper purpose, I rate my K4 highly, and as opposed to using a CS screw and having to fill the depression afterwards (for an invisible joint) the pocket hole idea of a piece of dowel glued into the hole then cut off flush is IMO a definite plus. (But I would NOT pay Kreg's prices for their own plugs)!

 

[Lonsdale73]

But I do dislike the Kreg screws (both in terms of price and - here anyway - relatively poor availability)

I have loads of genuine Kreg screws going spare (and cheap!). I'd need to doublecheck but I'm sure they can be used with a pozi drive bit.

 

[AES]

Thanks Lonsdale, I did buy a couple of hundred from you (but haven't looked to see what drive the heads have - I don't use my K4 all that much). But if they're pozi, then IMO, coupled with your sensible prices they'd been an even better buy than I thought!

Cheers

 

[sammy.se]

Does anybody use glue, dowels or biscuits for alignment, then pocket holes to hold it together? or is that just pointless?

 

[Benchwayze]

I would never need screws of any sort with the dowel joints I used to make with the aforementioned Woden dowelling jig. In fact when I finally get around to new kitchen cabinets , I am going to use my trusty Woden jig again for the doors.

John (hammer)