Japanese saws

[Jacob]

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The ultra fine kerf of Japanese saws comes in handy when I'm making contemporary drawers where I want the minimum possible disruption to the flow of the grain,

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How fine are they though? I had a quick google and came up with Jap saw plate 0.3mm.
On a bog standard S&J DT saw it's 0.5mm.
Is the difference of 0.2mm at all significant in the real world?

PS and there have always been finer saws available, thinner than the standard DT, for those who really need them. "Fine kerf" isn't at all a USP for Japanese saws.

 

[custard]

Is the difference of 0.2mm at all significant in the real world?

I've decided it is significant for my work. If you decide differently for your work then of course that's entirely your choice.

 

[Jacob]

:roll: oo-er!

I don't believe 0.2mm would be significant - it's barely visible.
Small scale model or instrument making perhaps - but not for ordinary woodwork like yours?

 

[Harbo]

Custard’s woodwork is not ordinary!

Rod

 

[Jacob]

It is, compared to model/instrument making etc!

 

[AndyT]

Plate thickness isn't the same as kerf width, which will depend on the tooth geometry and the amount of set.

 

[Jacob]

Yes but it does represent the minimum possible (though not necessarily practical) kerf width.

 

[Beau]

:roll: oo-er!

I don't believe 0.2mm would be significant - it's barely visible.

I think it's safe to say we dont all work to the same standards Jacob. Think I have seen your work and your a carpenter who does quite bit of painted work by the looks of it while Custard is clearly a highly skilled cabinet maker. The requirements for accuracy for the two are not the same IMO.

I love the few Japanese style pull saws I have (nothing fancy) and wont be swopping back anytime soon.

 

[Just4Fun]

Plate thickness isn't the same as kerf width, which will depend on the tooth geometry and the amount of set.

I suspect it may also depend on the skill of the user.
I am not skilled, but any skill I do have is with western saws. I have measured the saw kerf I get with my western-style tenon saw and with my el-cheapo Japanese style pull saw. I expected the Japanese saw to create a much finer kerf but there really wasn't a great deal of difference. I don't remember the figures, but the conclusion was striking. The Japanese-style pull saw made a smoother cut, but the kerf was not as fine as the saw plate thickness led me to expect.

 

[Jacob]

:roll: oo-er!

I don't believe 0.2mm would be significant - it's barely visible.

I think it's safe to say we dont all work to the same standards Jacob. Think I have seen your work and your a carpenter who does quite bit of painted work by the looks of it while Custard is clearly a highly skilled cabinet maker. The requirements for accuracy for the two are not the same IMO.

You shouldn't jump to conclusions! I've done bits and bobs of fine woodwork too, including little pointy dovetails, small boxes etc. Part of the legacy of being a joiner comes from doing a wide variety of work, but perhaps more than anything having to be ruthlessly practical and not standing for BS e.g. over sharpening, or fancy tools!

I love the few Japanese style pull saws I have (nothing fancy) and wont be swopping back anytime soon.

Hmm, I'm not convinced, they are expensive and Japanese woodwork itself is not noticeably more refined than European. Japanese design is though.

 

[Beau]

[/quote]You shouldn't jump to conclusions! I've done bits and bobs of fine woodwork too, including little pointy dovetails, small boxes etc. Part of the legacy of being a joiner comes from doing a wide variety of work, but perhaps more than anything having to be ruthlessly practical and not standing for BS e.g. over sharpening, or fancy tools!

Can only judge by what you have shared online in the past. Not knocking your work as it's good honest furniture and I like your ruthless approach to time wasting gadgets but precision is required for some styles of work and very hard to achieve with less precise/course tools. One can muddle though with more basic tools but if you have to work to very precise standards day in day out why not use tools that make this easier?

Might seem strange but when I pick up a delicate fine saw it does more than cut a fine line but helps set the mind to be precise.

Sorry OP for derail

 

[D_W]

Agree with custard's assessment of small work. The thin kerf and the shape that the machine cut teeth comes in does help.

My tooth breaking for one of those dozukis came in cutting small turning blanks out of white oak for handles, though (z-saw combination dozuki). Off came the teeth.

Another semi-handmade ryoba (hard teeth and hard plate, not like the gyochuko saws), slipped out of the cut and hit the bench and two teeth pinged right off. Bummer!

Generally, the more of a beginner someone is, the better the argument for cheap saws (soft plate and impulse hardened teeth) - the teeth are usually tougher and harder to break off on a saw like that.

Cutting the box apart as custard showed is a good use of a ryoba. Ripping a 4 foot length of 8/4 wood, not so much.

(there are cheap alternatives to the small japanese saws here in the states - zona still makes saws aimed at modelers with small teeth and thin plates).

One other side comment for the japanese saws - you can cut horizontally (across something) much easier, and I see why beginners love them (I did, too). They come with great teeth on them, you place them on the work and pull. The idea of a hard starting cut is foreign until you get into the bigger rip teeth.

 

[Racers]

I like the fact that you are using bigger muscle groups with a Japanese saw, its a lot less tiring so you can keep concentrating.
Their aren't many people who row a boat by pushing the oars away from themselves, I know some stand and push but it donsn't look very efficient.


Pete

 

[Jacob]

.......
Can only judge by what you have shared online in the past. Not knocking your work as it's good honest furniture

It's not the only thing I've done!

.....precision is required for some styles of work and very hard to achieve with less precise/course tools. One can muddle though with more basic tools but if you have to work to very precise standards day in day out why not use tools that make this easier?

Do you really believe that makers "muddle through" if they don't have Japanese saws?
Nothing against them of course, but I don't believe you can often buy skill by buying a "refined" tool.

 

[D_W]

I'd bet that the average user would cut tighter dovetails with a gyochuko combination dozuki. Mistakes would be less horrid, too - you could almost get away with cutting on the wrong side of the line with the thinnest of saws - it would just look like a bad mark or fit rather than an obvious mistake of cutting on the wrong side of the line.

In terms of buying a refined tool, at one point, the combo dozukis were cheaper than any refinished western saw.

I am in your camp, though, that eventually, the effect will go away if you get familiarity elsewhere. And like shaving with a straight razor, with the western saw, you get control over its performance and don't end up at the mercy of a saw that starts out "good", and then declines until you can't tolerate its performance. I gave all of my small japanese saws away save two (one ryoba for cuts like custard shows, and one flush cut saw...wait, I have three - add an azebiki to that - a nice saw to have for cutting stopped dadoes).

The fellow I gave those saws to is someone who has always had trouble with western saws, but who was too cheap to buy a bunch of japanese saws. He thought he hit the jackpot. I felt better about freeing up the till.

(along the same line of this fineness, remember when Chris Schwarz recommended all of the various users should buy giant thin plate tenon saws? Anyone remember what happened to those? Improvement in user skill and distaste for a fragile saw probably made their popularity very temporary. I built (and still have) a dovetail saw with a thin kerf and a high plate. What a stupid idea - and remind that cutting half the plate off will make it into a good saw.

 

[E-wan]

I may look into weather impulse hardened blades for hardward are available from Japan.

Blimey Ewan, that sounds expensive! Are you sure you haven't fallen down one of the many OCD woodworking rabbit holes?

I'm no expert on Japanese tools, and for the most part I prefer using western saws, but I've got a couple of the same Gyokucho saws you have and I find they come in useful for some jobs.

I like using a Japanese saw when box making to separate the lid from the box body,




The ultra fine kerf of Japanese saws comes in handy when I'm making contemporary drawers where I want the minimum possible disruption to the flow of the grain,



And sometimes I'll use a Japanese saw to cut needle point/London pattern dovetails,




I managed perfectly well on all these jobs with the exact same UK sourced saws that you have, plus I've used them successfully on super hard timbers like Rosewood, Ebony, and African Blackwood.

So unless you're envisaging projects far more demanding than these you might find the saws you already have are all you actually need.

Thank you custard, rabbit hole avoided although I'm sure I shall encounter others.

I was more planning to look into it for interest rather than buying a lot of new saws.

Ewan



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