Japanese Chisels

[Saer Llongau]

Any recommendations on brands and qualities for value conscious everyday use?

I'm just going to jump right in here. I'm not in the habit of introducing myself in introduction threads.

If you're looking for high quality, every day use, working chisels I can highly recommend Kikuhiromaru "Sugutsukai Kiwami" chisels.
These have a White Steel #1 cutting layer that's quite tenacious and can take a serious beating. The finish is not as refined as say Tasai or Kiyohisa but to me that
doesn't matter. All the time and money goes into what counts with these chisels and that's the steel. I've used these chisels for the last 12 years and I haven't
regretted purchasing them one bit. If I remember correctly I paid something like 550 pounds for the 9, 12, 15, 18, 24 and 30mm chisels.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I'm afraid I'm rather more "value conscious" than that. :lol:

 

[Harbo]

I’ve got a small set of Blue Steel Matsumura chisels which got good write-ups in the American mags a few years ago. I use them in the workshop but for “site” work my Stanley 5001’s and 5002’s get used.

Rod

 

[D_W]

koyama-ichi are probably the lowest price "good" chisels, because their finish level is relatively minimal. They are appropriately hard, too.

Iyoroi chisels are good in trim levels above basic, but they are functional even in basic trim (and a touch soft, which is fine, they're more like very good vintage steel that's a touch harder than vintage steel).

When you get above something like koyamaichi, most of the rest of the money is in finish or overhead (for example, if you buy tasai chisels from japan woodworker in the US, you're getting a chisel just slightly better than koyamaichi and paying a whole bunch of links in the chain who all want their piece).

If you're going low cost and using synthetic stones, blue steel isn't a bad idea. It's easier for someone to do well.

1 or 2, white or blue, doesn't matter unless a chisel is defective. I've bought a lot of white 1 chisels, they're the display of a smiths skill because the range in hardening an tempering them is so narrow, but quite often they are a bit overhard. I've bought old ouchi in white 1 (very hard) as well as 3 kiyotada chisels. They're all still chisels, and I prefer them down a notch in hardness so that they're more compliant with natural stones.

Separate note - I've also bought a set of old chisels off of buyee (japanese proxy for their auction site) for $80 for 10. The set is a mismatch, but they are as good as anything else I've used. I am a some days toolmaker, so setting up used chisels isn't a real issue. It probably took an hour to clean that set up, but it would've taken me a week if I just had basic sharpening stone (so not suggesting that for everyone).

One other side note. Tomohito iida dumps chisel sets on ebay. If their lamination line isn't straight across *, then they're usually a reasonable deal.

* usually, chisels with lamination lines not bent up at the sides are budget chisels, but there is one maker - konobu - who makes super high quality stuff without bending the lamination up on the sides.

 

[Saer Llongau]

koyama-ichi are probably the lowest price "good" chisels, because their finish level is relatively minimal. They are appropriately hard, too.

I wouldn't call them appropriately hard, at least not compared to my Kikuhiromaru's. My chisels are almost full hardness, at least 65 on the Rockwell scale (I did ask them to make the chisels that hard).
None of the blacksmiths make chisels that hard anymore.

Btw, they sharpen just fine on my Shiro Suita with lots of renge.

 

[Trafalgar]

British tools seem capable enough:

http://www.ronaldphillipsantiques.com/d ... mfurniture

 

[D_W]

koyama-ichi are probably the lowest price "good" chisels, because their finish level is relatively minimal. They are appropriately hard, too.

I wouldn't call them appropriately hard, at least not compared to my Kikuhiromaru's. My chisels are almost full hardness, at least 65 on the Rockwell scale (I did ask them to make the chisels that hard).
None of the blacksmiths make chisels that hard anymore.

Btw, they sharpen just fine on my Shiro Suita with lots of renge.

Maybe they vary. I had a set of them at one point that were definitely full hardness. As were the older Ouchi chisels. I think they're all a little bit more practical if they're down a click or two, and the state of most vintage tools that I find would agree. The hardest vintage japanese irons and chisels that I've found have gone mostly unused because at 65 or above, they present a technical problem. they don't sharpen well on natural stones (and if your chisels sharpen well and in a reasonable time on a suita, and easily - not just the soft backer, but the steel itself, they're probably not 65 hardness), and they will have strange failures if sharpened on harsher synthetics.

The hardest chisel that I have requires such care in sharpening and use that technically, it can last a long time in use, but in practice, it can be a bit of a nuisance (that is a kiyotada parer - chisels don't come harder, and if it didn't have value due to being kiyotada, I'd temper it).

When you factor in the odd failure that happens here or there in the 65 hardness chisels, something two clicks back from there is more practical in the end. You can hone that something faster and chipout is much less common because white steel is much tougher at 62-63 than it is at 65.

I know that there are legendary tales about blacksmiths in japan, but none of the chisels are really anything better than just a bit better than the better english stuff. Beyond that, there are trade offs. Certainly, the Japanese have managed to keep making very clean blade steels, but even the very best were returned to blacksmiths all the time by professional users (especially temple makers who complain about anything that can't be used all day without sharpening, but that will also not tolerate some levering. That caused a lot of the better tokyo makers to quit catering to them - they wanted the impossible).

At any rate, in the interest of actually getting work done with my chisels (which includes mortising planes), I sold my ouchis (which were the older harder ouchis) and kept some mokume iyoroi chisels that sharpen really well on a washita. It's a better system (and faster) than trying to live at the edge of everything.

FWIW, I have about $15,000-$20,000 worth of natural stones right now (i sell them), so there aren't a lot of things that I haven't tried. I just can't argue with a chisel that can chop a plane mortise and be corrected in 15 strokes on a washita, and then chop another one. The ouchis would lose a corner here or there, they just weren't up to it. I can't say the same would be true for cheaper iyorois, I don't have any (the mokume chisels are overpriced for what they are - which is generally true across all lines - the pattern steel and stuff is hocum, but I found mine half price). For the ouchis, I paid the princely sum of $450 for 12 of them due to nobody having a clue about what they were at an auction called "MJD" here in the states. Nice chisels, but better for some dude who only chops dovetails in soft woods.

 

[D_W]

British tools seem capable enough:

http://www.ronaldphillipsantiques.com/d ... mfurniture

If it becomes a contest, I can't think of a whole lot that $1 chisels can't do. They need to be sharpened a little more often, but you don't cry if you drop one.

 

[Saer Llongau]

Maybe they vary. I had a set of them at one point that were definitely full hardness. As were the older Ouchi chisels. I think they're all a little bit more practical if they're down a click or two, and the state of most vintage tools that I find would agree. The hardest vintage japanese irons and chisels that I've found have gone mostly unused because at 65 or above, they present a technical problem. they don't sharpen well on natural stones (and if your chisels sharpen well and in a reasonable time on a suita, and easily - not just the soft backer, but the steel itself, they're probably not 65 hardness), and they will have strange failures if sharpened on harsher synthetics.

I should probably have mentioned my Suita needs some help from a nagura to get started. But still, it does sharpen the steel just fine. I have a family member in Japan who knows some stone (and tool) dealers and one of them selected and awesome Suita for me. It cost me a pretty penny but it's the fastest jnat I've ever used.

The hardest chisel that I have requires such care in sharpening and use that technically, it can last a long time in use, but in practice, it can be a bit of a nuisance (that is a kiyotada parer - chisels don't come harder, and if it didn't have value due to being kiyotada, I'd temper it).

When you factor in the odd failure that happens here or there in the 65 hardness chisels, something two clicks back from there is more practical in the end. You can hone that something faster and chipout is much less common because white steel is much tougher at 62-63 than it is at 65.

I know many Japanese carpenters would balk at me for doing so (and many have ) but I always maintain a slightly convex bevel on my chisels (Akio Tasai actually advised me to use a convex bevel years ago). A convex bevel makes the edge mechanically stronger and the durability is much higher. It also greatly reduces the chance of chipping.

I know that there are legendary tales about blacksmiths in japan, but none of the chisels are really anything better than just a bit better than the better english stuff. Beyond that, there are trade offs. Certainly, the Japanese have managed to keep making very clean blade steels, but even the very best were returned to blacksmiths all the time by professional users (especially temple makers who complain about anything that can't be used all day without sharpening, but that will also not tolerate some levering. That caused a lot of the better tokyo makers to quit catering to them - they wanted the impossible).

Temple makers are a weird bunch in my experience :lol:

At any rate, in the interest of actually getting work done with my chisels (which includes mortising planes), I sold my ouchis (which were the older harder ouchis) and kept some mokume iyoroi chisels that sharpen really well on a washita. It's a better system (and faster) than trying to live at the edge of everything.

The ouchis would lose a corner here or there, they just weren't up to it. I can't say the same would be true for cheaper iyorois, I don't have any (the mokume chisels are overpriced for what they are - which is generally true across all lines - the pattern steel and stuff is hocum, but I found mine half price). For the ouchis, I paid the princely sum of $450 for 12 of them due to nobody having a clue about what they were at an auction called "MJD" here in the states. Nice chisels, but better for some dude who only chops dovetails in soft woods.

As a boat builder I work with hard, White Oak all the time and my Kikuhiromarus hold up just fine. All I know is I like them and they work for me. And that's all that matters in the end

 

[D_W]

The second and fourth statements, exactly right. If they make you happy in use, then that's all you need. I did like the ouchis, but I don't need two sets of the same thing, so I kept the ones that sharpen easily on my favorite stones.

(re, the second - one thing that helps immensely with mortising is a very slight/tiny convex bevel right at the edge. It's also a bias that makes sure that you have your finest stone work done all the way to the very edge. I can't see anything wrong with it, and I'm sure people do it in japan, too. I'm not going to name names, but I've heard of a very high end dealer who prepares tools for a fee and he suggests the same. It got both benefits of strength and ensured sharpness - and if someone objects, you can ask them how well their tool is cutting while you're hammering away and they're grinding out a nick by hand)

I have all kinds of thoughts on sharpening stones, but I'll leave them out. If you have a fast suita, it pretty much doesn't get any better.

 

[Saer Llongau]

I have all kinds of thoughts on sharpening stones, but I'll leave them out. If you have a fast suita, it pretty much doesn't get any better.

To be honest, my knowledge of Japanese natural stones is rather limited. For this I rely entirely on my cousin and the dealers he knows. I can tell him exactly what hardness, aggressiveness and sharpening feeling I want and he takes it from there.

 

[Trafalgar]

British tools seem capable enough:

http://www.ronaldphillipsantiques.com/d ... mfurniture

If it becomes a contest, I can't think of a whole lot that $1 chisels can't do. They need to be sharpened a little more often, but you don't cry if you drop one.

Yeah, maybe, but there's a middle way. Staying away from extremes is probably a good idea. Maybe go all out on one's inventory of material if money is burning a hole in a pocket.

 

[D_W]

British tools seem capable enough:

http://www.ronaldphillipsantiques.com/d ... mfurniture

If it becomes a contest, I can't think of a whole lot that $1 chisels can't do. They need to be sharpened a little more often, but you don't cry if you drop one.

Yeah, maybe, but there's a middle way. Staying away from extremes is probably a good idea. Maybe go all out on one's inventory of material if money is burning a hole in a pocket.

I think I hear hens.

 

[Trafalgar]

I suspect you think you hear lots of things...

 

[Hornbeam]

I think that using japanese or western style chisels really has any impact on the quality of work which you are able to do.
It is as much a matter of personal preference
I did try japanese chisels about 15 years ago. They did not suit me as I found the handles awful and the blade while very good at edge holding to be quite rough and crude.
I also prefer to buy British where possible and use a selection of Sorby, Marples and a couple of older chisels which I have rehandled.
Reasons for buying new tools are quite varied, often it is based on whim and teh pleasure of new tools but dont expect new tools to make you better. Learning to sharpen and use your current tools properly, possibly spending the money on a course will pay more dividends in the future.
Ian

 

[D_W]

If you are the kind of person who likes to hold chisels by the blades, or turn quickly and use the chisel in hand to pare, they're definitely not going to suit that well. If you're the kind of person who likes to grip a handle and never the blade and walk a chisel to a line or pull it to a line, you might love them. Might not.

The old English chisels are wonderful because they're not heavy in the blade and holding them by the handle seems intuitive. I've tried three sets of newer marples chisels and stanley 500x, but each set has had two duds in it (chisels that are almost unhardened - and I think that's got to be unusual). Someone has eventually begged them off of me. Finding older English chisels over here with boxwood handles and nice finishing has been less easy, but I have managed to do it. Paring chisels, too - English, definitely. They are 30 pounds over there and about 100 bucks each over here.

 

[Hornbeam]

As a former metallurgist and someone who has spent 30 years in the steel industry, the concept of dud chisels shouldnt really exist. However as a woodworker the differences can be quite extreme. I have 2 sets of chisels. My better set can be sharpened to a much better edge than my general joinery ones Even though some of them are identical makes. I havent bothered to take them in to work and hardness test them etc but just accept it. Agree with comments about holding by the blade/handle. Tried some lovely Lie Nielson chisels the other day. They were lovely but out of my price and te handles are just way to small for my mitts.

 

[Saer Llongau]

I know that there are legendary tales about blacksmiths in japan, but none of the chisels are really anything better than just a bit better than the better english stuff.

I'm going to disagree with you on this. I have used old Sorby and Ward chisels, some old EA Bergs and old Nooigedagts and my Kikuhiromarus are better than all of them. Sure, the don't like prying and levering but if you use them how they're intended to be used, with a gennou, and you make clean cuts they are precision instruments and the edge of my almost full hard chisels lasts almost an entire working day in hard White Oak. But like I said before I always maintain a slightly convex bevel for extra mechanical strength.

 

[David C]

I disagree too.

After reading Krenov's first book, I was keen to try one.

They are much harder than anything from the West. Usually between 62 to 64 Rockwell C scale. Most European chisels are around Rockwell 58, which is significantly softer, as the scale is not linear.

Over the years I built up a set of chopping chisels (Oire Nomi) and a set of long paring chisels. A number of different makers.

Cheap ones are best avoided as the grinding is often awful.

Best wishes,
David

 

[D_W]

I know that there are legendary tales about blacksmiths in japan, but none of the chisels are really anything better than just a bit better than the better english stuff.

I'm going to disagree with you on this. I have used old Sorby and Ward chisels, some old EA Bergs and old Nooigedagts and my Kikuhiromarus are better than all of them. Sure, the don't like prying and levering but if you use them how they're intended to be used, with a gennou, and you make clean cuts they are precision instruments and the edge of my almost full hard chisels lasts almost an entire working day in hard White Oak. But like I said before I always maintain a slightly convex bevel for extra mechanical strength.

I think if you took the same level of care with the better western chisels, you'd find that they'd work with a rounded bevel with a few sharpenings per day. Not talking about 56 hardness hardware store chisels, but the high quality carbon steel chisels that are in the neighborhood of 60 hardness.

Certainly something 65 hardness will last longer if you manage to keep it going straight into the wood that you're chiseling, but in reality, that's just a marginally better tool (unless it has geometric constraints - but sometimes those don't favor the japanese chisels. For example, an old ward chisel is a wonderful tenon thinner. Nomi, not so much. Stopping to reach for a japanese parer, same - worth the time for considerable effort of paring, but to trim a tenon? No thanks that's why if I was actually forced to keep one set of chisels, they'd be western).

I don't call having to sharpen a couple of times per day a material difference, especially when a full sharpening on a japanese chisel is slower than sharpening a western chisel.

Also, the less expensive chisels are often more crudely finished, but we have files, grinders and belt sanders and it's not hard to correct what you don't like. It certainly makes more money sense, because you will learn a quick lesson if you ever move on and want to sell a set of japanese chisels you bought new. Their residual value is about half of what you paid, and maybe only slightly more if you bought them really well.