Japanese chisel newbie question

[Anonymous]

'Itting wiv a 'ammer never seemed to work for me. Did you soak the hande first? Or mebbe your handles are different wood to mine? Mine mostly look white oak, and the 'ammer seems to just bounce off! Tried clamps, tightening to compress, but the clamp just slips off. Got some mole grips that I want to try instead of vice - should be quicker. Also got some plumbers adjustable wrenches that may work too! Sheesh, as mentioned by Waterhead, if these were tailed beasts I'd send them back as not finished!

Don't be fooled by the thickness of these blades Alf - don't ever be tempted to pry waste with 'em ('it 'em wit t'ammer, then lever), like you may with a firmer, cos what you'll be left with is some very nasty nicks in the hardened business end of the chisel, and you'll encounter the need to move the hollow back much quicker! The Jap mortice chisels are quite good in that respect, not the Oires - far too brittle, as I pointed out previously!

For cleaning dovetails - (teaching granny to suck eggs & all that, I know), clean waste to within about 0.5 - 0.3 mm from knife line on shoulder, position chisel in knife line, tilt to undercut, and wallop. In the corners between shoulders and pins, you're right - the Oires aren't right for that - too thick. There are some Jap chisels with a DT shaped cross-section (called Umeki nomi) for cleaning up those corners, although a skew ground European would probably be better. I wouldn't like to skew grind a Jap chisel cos of the hollow.

 

[chiba]

For setting the ring on the handle I just use the soak and hammer method, i.e. have a cup of water to stick the handle in, then when it's good and soaked hammer the handle sides on a hard surface (anvil ideally) and rotate as you do so. When you get to the point where the ring fits, then hold the chisel (don't rest it on anything) and hammer the outer edges of the handle working inwards until you create a nice mushroom. Keep dunking the end in the water to keep the fibres pliable. Takes a while, but works. On cheaper (relatively) chisels there's often some kind of varnish/sealer on the handle - it pays to strip it off before you start, at least from the end, as it inhibits water absorbtion.

 

[Alf]

Well I must have a very pursuasive hammer; no soaking, just tapping. Lots of tapping. :roll:

I know - no prying on pain of pain. (BTW, these eggs taste awful... :wink: :lol: )

Cheers, Alf

 

[gidon]

Alf - the latest Tilgear "Winter Offers" has the 4 pc set of Oire Nomi chisels again - (Aka Kashi?) How did you find these in the end - they are half the price of the equivalent from Axminster and I'm sorely tempted?
Ta,
Gidon

 

[Alf]

Gidon,

They were very good; I just didn't get on with the hollow in the backs. It's my (bad?) habit of using a wider chisel than the work demands; the edge of the work kept dropping into the hollow. But they took a good edge, held it, and once I'd stripped and re-finished the handles, felt good in the hand. They're now in a new home, where I hope they'll bring chisel happiness.

Cheers, Alf

 

[martyn2]

:-k \/

 

[gidon]

Thanks Alf - I'm trying to think whether that'd be a problem for me too :-k. Not sure I can resist at £30 though ....
Cheers
Gidon

 

[Philly]

Gidon,
I'm sure you'll enjoy their edge taking ability. And at £30....... :wink:
And you did just finish a project!
Philly
Who loves beating the Bejesus out of his Jap chisels

 

[ByronBlack]

Here's another newbie question:

Other than being harder and brittle, what is the advantage of using a Jap chisel over a euro chisel?

I've got a set of 1101 Kirschens - and love them, but there bevels are a little strong - almost firmer like, and I was looking at some of the japanese dovetail chisels as the kirschens can sometimes be a bit too bulky for dovetailing.

And, if japanese chisles are more brittle, is there the same worry of chipping with the mortice chisels - or are these softer?

Apologies if this is hijacking the thread, but thought it be better than starting another similar one.

 

[Anonymous]

All chisels are good

 

[Philly]

BB
The Japanese make a variety of different styles of chisel-paring, mortise, dovetail, striking, etc. Different tools for different jobs. I find the edge a Jap chisel will take is very, very sharp. And it holds that edge for a long time!
I've been testing the mortise chisels and not found the edge chipping that the regular chisels seem to suffer from if mis-used.
As PP says, they inspire you to greater work as these tools are of a highly evolved nature and work amazingly well. Give them a try, but be prepared to learn the differences from Western chisels and how to use 9and tune) them best.
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[Alf]

Japanese chisels are the most perfect there are.

In your opinion...

- purpose of hollow backs is to allow you to polish both sides of the edge with every sharpening, therefore better edges. You want something perfectly polished both sides without deflecting the edge excessively, you need roughly equal surface areas to polish.

Western response: power buffs.

Come again? Funny, I can polish the back on my Western chisels and I've never owned a power buff in my life. Not that I'd use it for the back anyway, 'cos it'd likely round it (are you listening Henry Taylor?)

- corpulent iron shanks, that don't buzz like a misshit cricket bat with every blow of the hammer.

WR: cutesy turnings, even on mortising thug chisels (the Germans get it) and long blades that wobble with every hit. Butt chisels that, oddly, can't get any respect.

Huh?

- Angle to chisel backs that allows one to pare without handle interference. Secret function is it reduces chisel walk and diving.

So does a nice long length of steel blade. :wink:

- Socket and hoop system, of blade attachment, it works well.

WR: I like sockets just as well when they are well executed. One of my premium american socket chisels split, no idea why.

What is it with this irrational dismissal of tanged chisels? That ruddy FWW article had the same crazy bias. For every tanged chisel I see without a handle, I must proportionaly see half a dozen handless socket chisels - but luckily I don't see many of them at all. The only new chisel handle I've ever had come off was, funnily enough, a Japanese one... :lol:

Laminated construction

Have you any idea how many laminated blades were produced in Sheffield? I can lay my hands on a dozen without breaking sweat. It's not a clever Japanese-only thing.

Seems to me, most of the joys of Japanese chisels revolve around them being made from the smallest amount of tool steel they could get away with and trying to make that a feature, rather than a drawback. However, I'm sounding as biased against them as PP is sounding for them, although I'm not particularly, so I'll shut up.

Cheers, Alf

 

[bugbear]

I thought DC was a big fan of this company.

http://www.shokunin.com/

BugBear

 

[ByronBlack]

It seems like the plane discussion, this one too has a heated cross-section of opinions, which I think is great, afterall this is a discussion forum. But doesn't help me in my quest to really understand the clear advantage of using the Japense Chisel over the western.

So far my findings (bearing in mind i've not used the jap stuff yet) is that the clear difference is in the construction and hardness of the blades, so it seems the weigh-up comes down to:

Western - softer, but less prone to chipping, but more versatile, requires more often sharpening.

Eastern - harder and sharper, but more prone to chipping and therefore not as versatile, but requires less often sharpening.

So I guess it then comes down to technique, if I as a user of chisels use them in such a way that I clear the waste with a bevel-edge, I don't have to worry as much with the western blade of chipping it, but I have to be more careful with the japanese, but it will be a sharper cut. So there needs to be a slight adjustment with technique.

I think what I will probably do, is try and get hold of a couple of the japanese mortice chisels and perhaps a couple of their dedicated dovetailers to see how I get on. I think its going to take something quite special to wrench me away from my beloved Kirschens.

 

[Alf]

But doesn't help me in my quest to really understand the clear advantage of using the Japense Chisel over the western.

Sorry, Byron. I reckon the biggest advantage is you have a much higher likelihood of getting a decent, basic, edge-holding chisel for less money with the Japanese ones. But that's of zero use if you're a terminal "pryer". :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[ByronBlack]

Alf, i guess the issue there is how sharp is sharp enough?

Looking at the price of good japanese chisels seem more expensive than the kirschens that I currently use, so to get a better edge than i'm used to i'm actually looking at something more expensive.

Saying all that though, i'm definitly going to try some just out of curiosity, and general tool-lust ;-)

 

[Alf]

good japanese chisels seem more expensive than the kirschens that I currently use

Ah, but it's a matter of debate whether you need a "good" Japanese chisel to get as good, or better, an edge as on the Kirschens. Try a cheap one and see what you think.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Wiley Horne]

Just a few random thoughts on Byron's questions, and decision to wade into the Japanese chisel waters maybe ankle deep, and check it out...

Thought 1: Regarding the dovetail chisels, triangular section ('shinogi'), you can obtain these oire style with striking rings and bench chisel length, approx. 9". Or you can obtain them as paring slicks, approx. 14" long with no striking ring. These are often called 'push chisels' in the US, and I don't know how they are marketed in the UK. But in any case, which to get? If you're in the habit of sawing the waste from the sockets (as opposed to chopping it out), I suggest trying the 14" shinogi style paring slicks. Since I began sawing the waste, I would say 90% of everything I do with chisels (except mortises) is done with these slicks. They are just wonderful, IMO. And objectively--well, so far as anybody's opinions on tools are objective--that striking ring up there at the top of the handle sits proud of the wood, and in my experience it can begin to chew up the heel of your hand if the chisel is used for paring for any length of time.

Thought 2: Regarding which price range of Japanese chisels to shop in....The Japanese tool market is pretty much opaque to westerners. I mean, you can find out precisely the materials content and method of manufacture of a Kirschen or Ashley Iles or Lie-Nielsen chisel. This isn't the case with Japanese tools--at least for most of us. So you depend on the dealer. That's all you can do. So I would strongly suggest that Byron, or anyone else considering the same decision, get in touch with a knowledgeable UK dealer (such as the one Bugbear pointed to) and talk over what you're trying to do with them. For example, if you're considering a mortise chisel, you want to ask if there is side relief or not. And how much. You want to know if the cutting steel is forged onto the backing so that it wraps up nicely around the sides--this steel does a lot of the cutting for you, especially in a mortise chisel. You want to know, at least over the phone if you can't get to the dealer's store to have the wares in your hand--what is his opinion of the quality and balance of the various brands. If it's a slick, you want to know something about how the brands vary in regard to hand relief. Have this conversation with the dealer--if you make a straight mail order purchase of a store brand Japanese chisel, there is just no clue as to what you're getting. So I'm suggesting that the best risk to take is to trust a knowledgeable dealer. Ask the dealer if he will hand-select your order and inspect the welds, etc. You may end up paying more than you had planned, but that's better (IMO) than ending up with really poor gear and feeling like a chump.

Thought 3: I have a shop full of Japanese steel, and it gets mega-sharp, but I don't think it gets any sharper than O1 or cast steel, or even the alloyed western steels if you pick an adequate sharpening abrasive.

Well, that's it. Good hunting! Wiley

 

[Anonymous]

...

 

[MikeW]

Thought 3: I have a shop full of Japanese steel, and it gets mega-sharp, but I don't think it gets any sharper than O1 or cast steel, or even the alloyed western steels if you pick an adequate sharpening abrasive.

Oh this is a bit of sanity in a sea of BS.

Japanese chisels, English chisels, German chisels, Nearlyanywherechisels...who cares?

There are good tools and rubbish tools made and sold everywhere. My advice is to determine how much you are willing to spend, how much effort you wish to expend, whether occidental or oriental and then either purchase vintage chisels (effort to expend, time to get, but great value), or buy the best new ones in your price range and within your geographical proclivity.

Mike
the grump