Jack Planes?

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Why would you, Graham? The thicker blades are as quick to hone if you use the appropriate method. In fact, they are easier to freehand sharpen than thinner blades. And they do dampen vibration better, especially when one does not close up the chipbreaker.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[custard]

Hello Derek,

I know you're one of the people on this forum that have actually made some serious furniture, so I'll always listen carefully to what you have to say.

But I think here I have to disagree with at least a couple of things in your last post.

This can be repeated many times before the secondary bevel becomes too large and requires regrinding.

Well, that's possible, but only at the cost of ever increasing inefficiency. Personally as soon as it takes more than ten strokes to raise a burr then I re-grind, and I'm normally at that position after about five or six honings. I've worked alongside many professional woodworkers and although I'm probably at the "quick to regrind" end of the sharpening spectrum, it's not by that much! Other experienced makers may go ten or twelve honings between grinding, but rarely much longer. I appreciate that in a professional workshop there's almost always a dedicated sharpening station complete with a high speed grinding wheel or a linisher plus a tool rest set to a default 25 degrees, so it's the work of seconds to knock off some steel (while still preserving the actual cutting edge with its carefully shaped camber) and get back to where you can raise a burr with just two or three honing strokes. However, even if the power grinder is kept under the bench, it should only take a minute or two to get it up and running. If it takes any longer then it really is time to streamline the arrangements! Once the bevel stretches an appreciable distance across the width of a thick iron it takes a ludicrously long time to raise a burr, I've seen hobbyists thrash away for hundreds of strokes at a time, and if they're doing the job freehand there's no way they can maintain a consistent wrist angle throughout all that exertion, in which case they're just heaping one inefficiency on top of another.

Blade thickness is irrelevant.

On a thin Bailey style iron, even if you just work with a single bevel angle, you can still raise a burr in no more than fifteen or twenty strokes on an appropriately coarse stone. Personally I still stick to my ten stroke rule and so also grind my Bailey irons. However, I can understand why some makers choose not to. That simply doesn't hold true with the 3mm plus thick irons from Lie Nielsen or Veritas, hand honing a burr on one of their irons if it has a single bevel angle is a massively inefficient undertaking. And if you attempted it by hand without a honing guide then you'd only have to lift your wrists once and all that work would be undone, I can't think of a more dispiriting experience for a beginner!

I recognise in your post Derek that you too recommend power grinding, so maybe we aren't too far apart after all. But for the sake of clarity for the OP I'll say it again, don't buy a Veritas or Lie Nielsen plane unless you have access to a power grinder. At the most you'll only have a few hours of actual planing time with your new plane before it'll be time for re-grinding, and if you're brand new to woodwork (or just unlucky) and end up chipping your thick iron then you'll be absolutely stuffed without a power grinder, because you'll be looking at many, many hours of seriously hard graft to correct the problem.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Quote:
This can be repeated many times before the secondary bevel becomes too large and requires regrinding.

Well, that's possible, but only at the cost of ever increasing inefficiency. Personally as soon as it takes more than ten strokes to raise a burr then I re-grind, and I'm normally at that position after about five or six honings.

Custard, I consider grinding the most important factor in sharpening. However, I grind quite infrequently. I grind well, and in such a manner that I can raise a wire with 2 or 3 strokes on a 6000 grit, and finish on a 13000 grit. I introduce a 1000 grit after the third honing, and even then it only requires 2 or 3 strokes. The number of strokes increases, as you point out, as the hollow wears, but I rarely have to grind again until the edge has been honed at least 10-15 or more times.

This is a freshly honed 1" PM-V11 chisel (freehanded directly on the hollow) ..

With a newbie starting out with a honing guide, I very much doubt that they would notice the extra effort in honing (as the secondary bevel increases) that you or I might do. They may only develop this reference point after a few years, and after they had experimented with a few sharpening methods. In other words, what may be inefficient for you and I is of little consideration for a newbie. All they want is sharp and with reasonable effort.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[custard]

All they want is sharp and with reasonable effort.

Me too!

 

[G S Haydon]

Not something I'd worry about Derek, it was just a proposal should the OP buy a new plane and find the new iron to hard and to thick.

 

[ED65]

However the internet isn't really the beginner's friend when it comes to getting the ... advice they need. Yes, there is some excellent advice out there. But as a beginner how do you separate the genuinely excellent advice from all the nonsense spouted by over excitable retired gentlemen with little practical experience but passionately held hobby horse beliefs and prejudices? To the beginner they unfortunately all sound plausible enough, but the "short on experience, long on opinion" crowd will spin him around with their conflicting recommendations!

And there's never a word of conflicting opinion from those long on experience?

If two pros can disagree completely on any topic they can't both be right. It's not just regular readers of this forum who will be only too aware that they can have diametrically opposed views on on the best way to go about something, not just differ on a minor detail or two. And what's more a third one could step in who disagrees with the both of them!

So I think it's high time to put this particular hobby horse out to pasture.

 

[deema]

I respect both the views of Custard and Derek, and actually agree with both perspectives. My favourite go to plane is a no4 that I bought for site work. It is a £5 Bailey plane that I bought specifically because it was cheap (wasn't a big deal if it got borrowed!!) and had a full cast steel blade. It needed work to get it to work correctly, which is the downside to secondhand planes for anyone starting off.

The cast steel blade is thin, easy and much quicker to sharpen as Custard has highlighted than a the thicker blades. It also holds its edge IMO longer than most of the modern top end blades. However, you need to have a higher level of skill to sharpen them free hand than that required for a thicker blade IMO. With a thicker blade it's far easier to repeat the bevel angle (assuming hollow ground or full width honing and not micro bevel) when hand sharpening / regrinding as there is a lot wider land to register the blade on. With a thin blade is much harder I feel to achieve a consistent angle without resorting to jigs.

I think for anyone starting out, a really top quality brand new plane is the very best way forward. For most it's a hobby and a little extra time spent sharpening is actually part of the fun if it.

I would however recommend sticking to an standard oil quenched (O1) blade rather than any of the 'better' blade steel formulations. I've found that again for anyone starting out the PM-V11 from Veritas needs a diamond stone to cut it and the burr is not as obvious for a beginner. I may be biased as I personally prefer the O1 blade and have both available.

 

[Mangokid]

First, can I thank everyone for the very detailed replies, very helpful and encouraging for a newbie like myself. Interesting to see others experiences and what they might do differently if starting out again.

A 5 or 5 1/2 seems to be largely personal preference and I would get a few blades for different tasks, then look to add a 4 and 7 as suggested down the line. The wooden planes I have are 17" and 22" but I haven't done anything with them yet as I haven't had the need with the small projects I've been doing.

A few points stood out for me

I think buying your first plane brand new is the very best decision. If your not sure what a plane should feel like buying secondhand and then trying to fettle to make it work as it should is a long road of frustration.

I think I would get a Ryan air ticket and bob over to Liverpool and call into Axminster tools to try them out. I think a £39 ticket would be a good investment for what will be a serious purchase price.

The Ryanair thing is not a bad idea at all...

But this other advice really stood out to me, and was pretty much the reason why I came to the conclusion myself to go new. When I first became interested in woodworking and had zero tools, I picked up an old Stanley 4 at a car boot. Trying to restore it did become a frustrating process for me, not particularly enjoyable, and I could never really get it to right. I'm sure this says more about me than the tool, but we all start somewhere...

Only cost me £8, so no big deal, and I passed it on to my brother who also became interested in woodworking when he saw the few small projects, boxes etc I'd made, so not all lost. He's an engineer and has had a bit more luck with it since.

Also, we have a new baby due in three wks and with a three year old already and a long work week, I don't really want to spend any free time I do get looking through ebay listings hoping to get lucky, or fettling hand planes. Not ruling it out totally for the future, should I add more planes, which I'm sure I will, but just not for now.

I had been looking at either a Chinese/Quangsheng or a Veritas, which I can get a bit cheaper when a family member holidays in the States shortly.

Excellent advice already. Homing in on your preference not to buy secondhand - there's a third option, between the eBay chancers and very expensive new. Buy from a named old tools dealer. These people know what good old tools look like and have reputations to protect, so don't sell duds. Or if you think they have, will swap or refund.
I don't think there's anyone with retail premises in Belfast but work your way through the online dealers and you'll be ok. Or phone one and talk it over.
There's a useful list on the TATHS site here

http://taths.org.uk/tools-trades/notes- ... ealers-etc

However, an interesting option here, I hadn't considered, is too buy an old restored tool. I've just had a quick look at the link, but has anyone
done something similar? Or could recommend a specific seller they have used and been happy with?

Would the plane come just looking nice as per the pictures but still require fettling? Or could I expect it to come flattened etc, ready to use with a sharpen or am I expecting too much?

Thanks again for all the input.

 

[Mangokid]

Also a very interesting back and forth discussion above on the pros and cons of the thicker vs thinner irons.

For the record, I have been using scary sharp successfully with my chisels and would continue using this in future for plane irons etc, though not ruling out a different method as time goes on.

I was aware that the thicker irons would be more difficult to regrind the primary bevel when required, and a real grind to do by hand. I figured I would try it by hand anyway when I needed to and if it really is that big a slog, is it not just a matter of getting a grinder when required and learning to use it? I'm sure it's not as simple as that, but I figured it was something I would have to learn eventually...

I had it in the back of my head to eventually start a thread on grinder recommendations also, when I had a chance to research it a bit myself. But the basic ones don't seem expensive, and with the right wheel and an after market jig is it really that difficult a process to learn to do? It's mentioned as if it's a big issue to learn to do, is that the case?

 

[Trafalgar]

Scary Sharp is fine. If you like it don't change, and it renders the argument between thick or thin moot, because of the rate the papers will abrade steel.

Otherwise, learning to grind isn't that big a deal, but you need one sacrificial chisel and one sacrificial plane iron that you can use so you're not worried about ruining something important. By the time you take a little length off both of them you'll have it, temper might be ruined but who cares -- they're sacrificial. Keep ice water by the grinder and dunk frequently. Have fun. Wear eye protection!

Cheap grinders are fine. I have a Sears 6" grinder from the 1970s that won't give up the ghost for anything. The bearings are so loud I wear ear protection, but it still runs the wheel at speed and with no wobble. You could be a full-time professional furnituremaker and you'd still not put an hour a week of running time on a grinder once you know what you're doing. Tool hounds and people who fettle tools as a nervous habit --- 'nother matter altogether.

 

[essexalan]

Another advantage of going for a 5 1/2 is that you can standardise on blades from a #4 1/2 to a #7, saying that a #5 with a cambered blade I have found better for fast removal of timber. Ray Iles will sort you out a good plane at a cost more than ebay but less than a quarter of the price of a LN or LV , ask for a laminated Record blade plus a spare if he has one, nice bloke and no nonsense he does not deal in junk.

Raising a burr on a single bezel Japanese chisel takes me no more than a few strokes on the right stone, all about pressure and using the right stone same for any plane iron and I have never thought of counting strokes when the primary gets a bit narrow I regrind. Grinding a primary bezel I have done many times on irons up to 6 mm thick and yes it does take time again reduced by using the right stone and all by hand. Of course I am just a rank amateur, retired but with an extensive engineering background so listen to those with 30 years experience in the trade which sometimes means they have learned the same thing every year for most of the thirty years. Yes a powered means of grinding a primary is the fast option but you can still sort out a 3 mm iron pretty fast by hand and yes I do know because I have done it.

 

[morturn]

My most loved and most used is the Jack (of all trades) 5½. A good, solid all-round plane you will not regret buying.

 

[Ttrees]

Good to know you have a honing guide allready, as some folk don't advise using one.
I think its a good idea, as you will have eliminated technique out of the equation and can really be sure
how long it takes to hone an edge.

If you want to know how much of a slog it is to sharpen an edge that needs to be reground
try and re-hone the irons in your woodies.
You will want acquire a way to grind the primary bevel to less than what you would use for honing.
I grind to 23 degrees and hone to 35, each time the honed secondary bevel gets larger and takes longer and longer.

I would look out for a cheap grinder and use the roughest wheel, as it removes the waste and does not heat up the iron as quick.
Leave the honed tip as Derek has shown.
Practice on a 1 quid beater chisel from the pound shop.
You will be in the same scenario with your woodies now, if you buy a new plane without means of regrinding the iron.

You could easily spend a half an hour trying to hone an iron that needs regrinding on a washita oilstone, or a minute or two on a freshly ground iron.

There will be buy it now listings on the bay, so you don't have to spend time looking and waiting for an auction to come around.
So to look for the best bet on a used plane would be a heavy casting, and to see the iron has no corrosion, no cracks on the wings.
And a mouth with no chips taken out of it.
You can probably get a plane still in a box never used, that has not been touched since the sixty's in new condition for bout 50 quid.
I think I paid 16 quid plus postage on my jack.
Look for a surface plate or get a Ultex whetstone.
Here is an example beneath on what I'm on about.
If you choose to get a used plane it would be nice to know its flat so you can eliminate that out of the equation.
And then you would be able to fettle the iron and cap iron also without the need to have a diamond stone.
And you would be able to grind your primary bevel on rough sandpaper.
I think a surface plate its a very useful tool to have and would be worth looking for.
Good luck again
Tom

 

[Vann]

For grinding, I use a hand-cranked grinder. I don't know prices over there, but I think you would pick up a hand grinder cheaper than a powered one, on the second-hand market. Saves burning the steel. I bought a white wheel for mine. It was locally available so quicker and cheaper to obtain than a blue 3M wheel. My 8" powered grinder has been relegated to other work.

As for buying new versus second hand: both will need fettling at the bottom end of the market - so you don't save that step by buying new. A Ray Ilse second-hand plane will have more emphasis on be well fettled than on paint and polish - it will probably be the best way to go.

And just a note on LVs Veritas bevel-down planes: they have a "Norris" type depth (and lateral) adjuster, which is just not as easy to use as a "Bailey" type. If you get a premium bevel-down plane brought back from North America, consider a Lie-Nielsen instead - simply for the Bailey depth adjuster.
I think I'm up to sixpence worth so far... (hammer)

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Mangokid]

Good to know you have a honing guide allready, as some folk don't advise using one.
I think its a good idea, as you will have eliminated technique out of the equation

If you want to know how much of a slog it is to sharpen an edge that needs to be reground
try and re-hone the irons in your woodies.

I would look out for a cheap grinder and use the roughest wheel, as it removes the waste and does not heat up the iron as quick.
Leave the honed tip as Derek has shown.
Practice on a 1 quid beater chisel from the pound shop.

I think a surface plate its a very useful tool to have and would be worth looking for.

Tom

Yes, Wouldn't attempt anything without the honing guide at this stage.

Just took a quick look at the woodies irons last night and they definitely need a bit of work,tho the wooden bodies are in good shape, may well attempt that by hand just to experience it!

Thanks for the tips on the surface plate and the grinder. Will def be picking up a few cheap chisels to start on.

 

[Mangokid]

For grinding, I use a hand-cranked grinder. I don't know prices over there, but I think you would pick up a hand grinder cheaper than a powered one, on the second-hand market. Saves burning the steel. I bought a white wheel for mine. It was locally available so quicker and cheaper to obtain than a blue 3M wheel. My 8" powered grinder has been relegated to other work.

As for buying new versus second hand: both will need fettling at the bottom end of the market - so you don't save that step by buying new. A Ray Ilse second-hand plane will have more emphasis on be well fettled than on paint and polish - it will probably be the best way to go.

And just a note on LVs Veritas bevel-down planes: they have a "Norris" type depth (and lateral) adjuster, which is just not as easy to use as a "Bailey" type. If you get a premium bevel-down plane brought back from North America, consider a Lie-Nielsen instead - simply for the Bailey depth adjuster.
I think I'm up to sixpence worth so far... (hammer)

Cheers, Vann.

Yes thanks a lot for all your input.

Have to say, I like the idea of a hand grinder, I've avoided anything with a plug so far, not because I wouldn't like any power tools but just because I haven't had the need yet. There don't seem too be many for sale, after an initial quick search, but I'll look further into it.

Lie Nielsen are amazing, tempting of course when I'm day dreaming about tools, but I'm sure it's quality would be wasted on a beginner like me.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Lie Nielsen are amazing, tempting of course when I'm day dreaming about tools, but I'm sure it's quality would be wasted on a beginner like me ...

Nice as they are, they won't make you into an expert. Knowledge and practice will.