ISPs want some of our license fee? how is that fair

[kityuser]

ok

[RANT]

how the bloody hell is this fair?
I pay for an "up to 8meg" internet connection unlimited.
unlimited what does that mean? well supposidly it means unlimited under the companies "fair useage" policy. I.e. if they think that by me using it too much , I affect other peoples connection then thats not fair useage.

point 1) why is it my fault that MY connection affects other peoples, surely the ISP needs enough bandwidth to serve MY connection in isolation? (clearly not the case).

point 2) how the hell can the ISP get away with advertising something that is "unlimited" but it is LIMITED BY THEM (thier shortfall of bandwidth).
Its like Tesco saying:
----------------------------------------
BUY ONE GET ONE FREE*

* note second one isn't free
----------------------------------------

point 3) how can my IPS get away with "data shaping" my connection from 6PM to midnight? how is it MY fault that they don't have enough capacity for everyone when they get home from work?


Now that more people are using VOD (video on demand), Iplayer, ITV, channel4, sky..........
why is it that the ISPs are allowed to get away with implementing thier "fair useage policy" far more liberally?
They have had MANY years of "getting away" with people "just" web browsing and emailing (low bandwidth), now that people want to "use" thier connection they are told that its "not fair" on other users.
COME ON! during the years of having it easy shouldn't the ISPs have spent some money on the infa-structure to pre-empt this situation.
How is it now the media suppliers responsibility to subsidize the ISP industry.

Its like saying that its FORD`s fault that shell can't cope with petrol demand.... utter rubbish.

[/RANT]

Steve

 

[Mcluma]

This was discussed this morning on BBC television, and watch-dog is on it

 

[tnimble]

They do that because you are paying for a shared bandwidth connection. You can get a internet connection with bandwidth dedicated for you but this costs about ten times as much.

 

[misterfish]

Of course the other thing is the 'contention ratio'. Mine is currently 1:50 but I'm changing to 1:20 when my ISP get their system sorted. This is all to do with the number of users allocated a standard amont of bandwidth - the allocated amount shared between 20 or 50 people so that as more come on line during peak times the alloacation is shared between more people and it all slows down.

I think the 'fair usage' is to reduce the number of people downloading huge (usually) video files 24/7.

I quite agree that unlimited should mean exactly that. My current agreement limits me to 20GB a month which is why I'm changing, but between midnight and 6AM the downloads are unlimited and don't count towards the monthly total.

The thing is that gone are the days of one computer needing network access - we have four (Me, SWMBO, Son, Father-in-law) and at the end of most months we are up around the 20GB level.

We usually find our access slows down in the evening as more users in our 'contention group' of 50 come on line as well as the fact that three of our home computers are likely to be in use.

Misterfish

 

[mr]

ok

[RANT]

how the bloody hell is this fair?
I pay for an "up to 8meg" internet connection unlimited.
unlimited what does that mean? well supposidly it means unlimited under the companies "fair useage" policy. I.e. if they think that by me using it too much , I affect other peoples connection then thats not fair useage.

well it means up to 8mb depending on network capability which is out of theISPs hands, and unlimited bandwidth usage with the structure of T&Cs - nothng particularly new or unfair here.

point 1) why is it my fault that MY connection affects other peoples, surely the ISP needs enough bandwidth to serve MY connection in isolation? (clearly not the case).

It's not your fault it's simply the way adsl works. The ISP has the bandwith to service your connection - if you want a different contention ratio they are available at higher rates. Look at the business and dedicated packages available from commercial ISPs by which I mean to exclude the likes of Virgin and Sky etc,

point 2) how the hell can the ISP get away with advertising something that is "unlimited" but it is LIMITED BY THEM (thier shortfall of bandwidth).

Common practice making something acceptable? Praps I'm a cynic but there's always a catch. Not all ISPs advertise "unlimited" as it is plainly undeliverable. It depends on who you look at, generally the late to the party non commerce based ISPs are "at fault" here.

point 3) how can my IPS get away with "data shaping" my connection from 6PM to midnight? how is it MY fault that they don't have enough capacity for everyone when they get home from work?

Again it's an issue of what level of service you require and pay for.

Now that more people are using VOD (video on demand), Iplayer, ITV, channel4, sky..........
why is it that the ISPs are allowed to get away with implementing thier "fair useage policy" far more liberally?

Are they or is it that more people are falling foul of it.

They have had MANY years of "getting away" with people "just" web browsing and emailing (low bandwidth), now that people want to "use" thier connection they are told that its "not fair" on other users.
COME ON! during the years of having it easy shouldn't the ISPs have spent some money on the infa-structure to pre-empt this situation.
How is it now the media suppliers responsibility to subsidize the ISP industry.

Its like saying that its FORD`s fault that shell can't cope with petrol demand.... utter rubbish.

Agreed, but in my opinion the two things are not connected. A portion of the license fee might be payable to the ISP or carrier but only for BBC content. The rest is supported by the relevant organisations marketing and advertising operations.
The BBC might well end up paying to have their content delivered via these non traditional channels, if they do it will probably be reflected in the license fee.

Cheers Mike

 

[kityuser]

ok

[RANT]

how the bloody hell is this fair?
I pay for an "up to 8meg" internet connection unlimited.
unlimited what does that mean? well supposidly it means unlimited under the companies "fair useage" policy. I.e. if they think that by me using it too much , I affect other peoples connection then thats not fair useage.

well it means up to 8mb depending on network capability which is out of theISPs hands, and unlimited bandwidth usage with the structure of T&Cs - nothng particularly new or unfair here.

point 1) why is it my fault that MY connection affects other peoples, surely the ISP needs enough bandwidth to serve MY connection in isolation? (clearly not the case).

It's not your fault it's simply the way adsl works. The ISP has the bandwith to service your connection - if you want a different contention ratio they are available at higher rates. Look at the business and dedicated packages available from commercial ISPs by which I mean to exclude the likes of Virgin and Sky etc,

point 2) how the hell can the ISP get away with advertising something that is "unlimited" but it is LIMITED BY THEM (thier shortfall of bandwidth).

Common practice making something acceptable? Praps I'm a cynic but there's always a catch. Not all ISPs advertise "unlimited" as it is plainly undeliverable. It depends on who you look at, generally the late to the party non commerce based ISPs are "at fault" here.

point 3) how can my IPS get away with "data shaping" my connection from 6PM to midnight? how is it MY fault that they don't have enough capacity for everyone when they get home from work?

Again it's an issue of what level of service you require and pay for.

Now that more people are using VOD (video on demand), Iplayer, ITV, channel4, sky..........
why is it that the ISPs are allowed to get away with implementing thier "fair useage policy" far more liberally?

Are they or is it that more people are falling foul of it.

They have had MANY years of "getting away" with people "just" web browsing and emailing (low bandwidth), now that people want to "use" thier connection they are told that its "not fair" on other users.
COME ON! during the years of having it easy shouldn't the ISPs have spent some money on the infa-structure to pre-empt this situation.
How is it now the media suppliers responsibility to subsidize the ISP industry.

Its like saying that its FORD`s fault that shell can't cope with petrol demand.... utter rubbish.

Agreed, but in my opinion the two things are not connected. A portion of the license fee might be payable to the ISP or carrier but only for BBC content. The rest is supported by the relevant organisations marketing and advertising operations.
The BBC might well end up paying to have their content delivered via these non traditional channels, if they do it will probably be reflected in the license fee.

Cheers Mike

can we not get confussed here!
ADSL is purley the local loop link to the exchange, from that point on its BT backbone (and ISP).
I have a good 2~3 ADSL link to the exchange but the bandwidth gets "pinched off" by the ISP in the backbone/exhange infastructure.
Surely there should be no difference in performance at different times of the day WITH constant LL speeds.

No where in the adverts did it say about bandwidth shaping..... I`m not convinced its legal, infact I think this practise is being challenged legally.

The level of service I require is the 8Meg unlimited that I pay for. Simply saying that its common place for adverts to do this is NO justification.
it IS misleading by design, and I find that unjust.
You have to remember thru all this that its about FAIRNESS, i.e. FUP
How is it thus fair that they can mislead in an advert, why if they are so bothered about fairness?

whichever way you wrap this up it is a swindle, advertise something with big numbers, don't deliver but still take the money.
The ISPs have had it easy for far too long. Jo blogs who used to webbrowse and email now wants piccies, youtube, iplayer and file sharing.
RIGHTLY SO, its whats paid for by the monthly contract.

"sorry sir, you can't drive your Ferrari on a track , you've used it around town for 3 years up to now, you'll have to pay Ferrari a bit more"

lots of predictions in the industry about the web snarling to a haul in the next few years.... I can see it happening already.

what a sorry state

Steve

 

[RogerS]

You get what you pay for..also .think you're missing the point re contention rates IMO. IIRC you share the exchange end with the other 49 users...

 

[kityuser]

you do agreed.

how come I can still download cached files at the ISP proxy at the full speed then?

Its most certainly being bottlenecked at the ISP. Other forums have catagoric proof of this from whisle blowers within these ISPs.

I`ll be moving from mine as soon as my year is up.

Steve

 

[RogerS]

.......
I`ll be moving from mine as soon as my year is up.

Steve

Tiscali? Usually rated well down the tables IIRC.

 

[ike]

The level of service I require is the 8Meg unlimited that I pay for.

But you don't pay for that. You are paying for up to 8Mb, unlimited subject to fair usage policy (i.e. sharing with others).

Maybe:-

(i) pay more to get what you want
(ii) read the the small print in your contract.
(iii) think how your neighbours would feel with you hogging bandwidth in the local loop.

all the above,

I pay £10 p.m. or thereabouts. I accept things slow down as up 49 others want to surf. If want more, I accept the principle I should pay more. Sounds like you want a Rolls for the price of a Mini.


Ike

 

[kityuser]

The level of service I require is the 8Meg unlimited that I pay for.

But you don't pay for that. You are paying for up to 8Mb, unlimited subject to fair usage policy (i.e. sharing with others).

Maybe:-

(i) pay more to get what you want
(ii) read the the small print in your contract.
(iii) think how your neighbours would feel with you hogging bandwidth in the local loop.

all the above,

I pay £10 p.m. or thereabouts. I accept things slow down as up 49 others want to surf. If want more, I accept the principle I should pay more. Sounds like you want a Rolls for the price of a Mini.


Ike

Nope! a roller would be far too expensive at todays fuel costs :shock:

what I would like is for my ISP not to purposly limit my bandwidth at thier server end not the local loop.

I`ll re-iterate, I always get abotu 2.5/3 meg negotiation on my modem, its the servers that are the bottleneck and the only excuse for that is ISP cutting costs by not investing in capcity once in the backbone.

I don't hog my neighbours LL bandwidth although if it means I get faster internet then....... sign me up 8)

and this all doesn't explain why all the ISPs are now claiming the "poor us" card because everyone wants to use thier internet connection for medai.
At what point will browsing a heavy flash site mean unfair "hogging" of bandwidth under the FUP?
It could get that bad. Espcially with "the cloud" looming.

I think (irrespective of smallprint) that most people would feel using iplayer or wed-radio is within fair-useage by "reasonable means".
downloading shed loads of porn or pirate music is blatently a mis-use (and normally in the smallprint) but what about linux distros..... and other open source software.
At one point tiscali (yes I named them now, since I realised my signature *doh), were blocking torrent and itunes ports at peak time.
I mean..... bloody itunes.
My mac wouldn't download podcasts or update (via apple update).
bang on 6pm then back on again after midnight, to the dot.
criminal!

you can pay more, go with BT and pay ALOT more.
But why should companies be able to get away with "misleading" customers.
I feel the concept of "unlimited" but with restriction isn't really unlimited anymore is it?
*******************************************************
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
un·lim·it·ed Audio Help /ʌnˈlɪmɪtɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uhn-lim-i-tid] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. not limited; unrestricted; unconfined: unlimited trade.
2. boundless; infinite; vast: the unlimited skies.
3. without any qualification or exception; unconditional.
*******************************************************

I`m pretty sure I remeber hearing that "unlimited" and "up to" jargon in ISP adverts is currently being investigated by the OFT.

incidently i once had a hotchilli account, 1Meg unlimited.
and it WAS unlimited. WHY o WHY did I ever change?

Steve

 

[ike]

When the interweb slows to a crawl, I just hit the switch and go and do something more constructive.! Although I admit I have never downloaded a video or an MP3 yet (not familiar with the iplayer thing - I watch the telly instead). Nope, just normal surfing, so I rarely get frustrated.

KISS

 

[kityuser]

When the interweb slows to a crawl, I just hit the switch and go and do something more constructive.! Although I admit I have never downloaded a video or an MP3 yet (not familiar with the iplayer thing - I watch the telly instead). Nope, just normal surfing, so I rarely get frustrated.

KISS

me neither, I suppose thats why I like woodworking and my guitar.
When it all goes slow I tut, turn everything off and head for the workshop.
just anoys me that it feels like I`m being scammed.


I get enough technical cr*p at work, i don't need it at home.
I have downloaded plenty of videos, the wood whisperer I partically enjoy.
as for music, I order the odd mp3 from the itunes store.
I also like the open source software scene.

Steve

 

[RogerS]

When the interweb slows to a crawl, I just hit the switch and go and do something more constructive.! Although I admit I have never downloaded a video or an MP3 yet (not familiar with the iplayer thing - I watch the telly instead). Nope, just normal surfing, so I rarely get frustrated.

KISS

me neither, I suppose thats why I like woodworking and my guitar.
When it all goes slow I tut, turn everything off and head for the workshop.
just anoys me that it feels like I`m being scammed.


I get enough technical cr*p at work, i don't need it at home.
I have downloaded plenty of videos, the wood whisperer I partically enjoy.
as for music, I order the odd mp3 from the itunes store.
I also like the open source software scene.

Steve

Ouch...no podcasts or iTunes...that is pretty duff service but.......

Sorry Steve but I can't share your vexation. Looking at the Tiscali site they are advertising their broadband service for less than two pints of beer a month. At that price I'd be greatful to get a dribble of data. I know that you agreed with me but in the area of ISPs and similar business models you really do get what you pay for.

 

[kityuser]

When the interweb slows to a crawl, I just hit the switch and go and do something more constructive.! Although I admit I have never downloaded a video or an MP3 yet (not familiar with the iplayer thing - I watch the telly instead). Nope, just normal surfing, so I rarely get frustrated.

KISS

me neither, I suppose thats why I like woodworking and my guitar.
When it all goes slow I tut, turn everything off and head for the workshop.
just anoys me that it feels like I`m being scammed.


I get enough technical cr*p at work, i don't need it at home.
I have downloaded plenty of videos, the wood whisperer I partically enjoy.
as for music, I order the odd mp3 from the itunes store.
I also like the open source software scene.

Steve

Ouch...no podcasts or iTunes...that is pretty duff service but.......

Sorry Steve but I can't share your vexation. Looking at the Tiscali site they are advertising their broadband service for less than two pints of beer a month. At that price I'd be greatful to get a dribble of data. I know that you agreed with me but in the area of ISPs and similar business models you really do get what you pay for.

agreed, its not just tiscali kicking up a fuss about iplayer and the like though is it?

and for the record, alot of the bandwidth shaping has stopped.

overall I don't have many problems these days.

Steve

 

[tnimble]

You are getting unlimited access. You are not completetly cut off after downloading (or uploading) a certain amount of data. Neither do you need to pay an amount per ternsferred mega byte over a certain amount of data.

The 8mb/s is not guaranteed, you need to upgrade to a dedicated connection for that.

Also a fair policy is in effect. The fair policy handles stuff like generating traffic constantly 24/7 without any interruption or relaxation, uploading a kazilion email messages, providing open relay services to Nigerians etc.


Your ISP does traffic shaping, refragmetation and caching be thankfull for that. The other end of the ASDL line is not directly connection to the BT or ISP back bone. There are many levels of loops each having their own shapers, refragmenters etc. This is to maximize throughput and distribute the total load. With the money you pay about a 50th of the maximum bandwith is bought by your ISP to service you. you can't expect the ISP to make huge losses because everybody tries to take advantage of the full bandwith at the same time.

'tis normal that accessing data on a server of the ISP is not degraded in speed at times. If that would happen the local network is overloaded by bad planning and putting to many end users on one of the loops.

 

[Shultzy]

I'm with Tiscali and suffer from the same issues as kityuser, so which ISPs do users recommend and how much do they pay for the privilege of speed and unlimited download.

 

[Woody Alan]

BT broadband option 3 unlimited means unlimited...they say occasionally they may restrict the P2P throughput but will not prevent access

I have downloaded over 40 Gb a month (at times) and no hassle

Alan

 

[tnimble]

Just for comparison. Since I live in the Netherlands)

My ISP is XS4All I pay about 43 quid per month.

For that I get unguaranteed 20mb/s (contention upto max 1:40, which means 512 kb/s absolute minimum), unlimited trnsfer, unristricted access (they do not cu off or limit specfic sites, protocols at any time of day. The speed is only affected by actual network load), IPV6, 5 email boxes (spam and virus filtered, fully customisable) with 500mB, 200Mb disk space for file sharing, shell access, VOIP telephone, unlimmited mobile internet, Virtual Private Networking, ability to run own servers, domain name, PC virus scanner and firewall software, etc

I can upgrate to a guaranteed 12mb/s line which would cost me 215 quid per month.

With that I get all of the above with a contention ratio of upto max 1:10 (minimal speed 1.2mb/s), a guaranteed uptime, upto 256 IP addresses without extra cost, 24/7 network monitoring.

I can also get a line with guarenteed upload speed a 2304 kb/s down 2304 kb/s up line with a contention ratio of upto max 1:10 would cost about 180 quid. With a dedicated ine with a contention ratio of 1:1 it costs a mere (or is that whooping) 440 quid per month.

The latter is about what you expect to be delivered to you for about a tenner :shock:

 

[kityuser]

Just for comparison. Since I live in the Netherlands)

My ISP is XS4All I pay about 43 quid per month.

For that I get unguaranteed 20mb/s (contention upto max 1:40, which means 512 kb/s absolute minimum), unlimited trnsfer, unristricted access (they do not cu off or limit specfic sites, protocols at any time of day. The speed is only affected by actual network load), IPV6, 5 email boxes (spam and virus filtered, fully customisable) with 500mB, 200Mb disk space for file sharing, shell access, VOIP telephone, unlimmited mobile internet, Virtual Private Networking, ability to run own servers, domain name, PC virus scanner and firewall software, etc

I can upgrate to a guaranteed 12mb/s line which would cost me 215 quid per month.

With that I get all of the above with a contention ratio of upto max 1:10 (minimal speed 1.2mb/s), a guaranteed uptime, upto 256 IP addresses without extra cost, 24/7 network monitoring.

I can also get a line with guarenteed upload speed a 2304 kb/s down 2304 kb/s up line with a contention ratio of upto max 1:10 would cost about 180 quid. With a dedicated ine with a contention ratio of 1:1 it costs a mere (or is that whooping) 440 quid per month.

The latter is about what you expect to be delivered to you for about a tenner :shock:

please let me clarify. (I design modems so have some understanding on this subject).
What I expect is a fairly decent connection speed (around 2 meg is fine), with minimal bandwidth shaping (or "pinching").
I`ve never stated that I was unhappy with contention ratios in the past, infact I seem to remember that I`ve been told that tiscali haven't rolled out to my exchange yet, thus I`m still on the same equipment I was when I was proviously with hotchilli. THUS it MUST be bottlenecks in the tiscali servers causing these issues, and that is unexcusable.
I know these guys have a business model, and YES if I wanted a solid 6 meg then I would have paid £60 odd quid a month to go with option x,y,z from BT..... I KNOW all of this.

and for all of those people saying I`m getting internet for the price of a couple of beers, well yes I would be, but because I don't live near a Tiscali rolled out exchange, I have to pay line rental as well, so I don't qualify for the £7.50 internet, its more like £18 I seem to remember....

I understand all the technicallities, honestly I do!, I`m grumbling about the "misleading" (IMO) advertising.

I for one think the ISPs have had it good for FAR too long.
The posted example of somebody from the netherlands is a fine example, how much would those services cost in the uk? ££££££

and its quite frankly disgusting that several ISPs have turned round and said that if more customers use "media streaming" bandwidth then they will have to tighten up thier FUP.

grumble over, should have known better, tight fisted, get what you pay for, yes yes I know
:roll:

still feel a bit conned though.

Steve