Is This Acceptable

[paul11]

Picked up this American Black Walnut yesterday at almost a £100 a cubic foot and over 50% is sapwood, as far as I'm concerned it's rubbish and no good for the 3D table I want to make as I need a dark/light look and the other wood I'm using is maple. This is the problem with buying sawn you just don't know what you got until you cut it, what would you suggest I do? take it back or could I put a dark stain on it, thanks,,Paul.

 

[marcros]

with ABW, sapwood is not a defect according to the grading standards. you may be frustrated, but i fear that it is "acceptable".

staining-a-black-walnut-sapwood-to-match-the-heartwood-t76527.html

and

black-walnut-with-sapwood-t70136.html

may help.

 

[paul11]

Thanks for the reply, although it may not be classed as a defect there must be a limit on the % you have to accept, after all it is called black walnut and mine is more white lol.

 

[ED65]

I'd certainly not be pleased if I'd paid a premium and gotten this. I think you should talk to them, express your dissatisfaction and see what they say. Can't hurt.

 

[deema]

Not sure which grading standards Marcos is referring to, if you specify the grade / shtabdard that you want, it certainly would be a defect, the standards normal stipulate that sizes should be given for just Heart wood.

 

[paul11]

I got to be honest guys I'm really not happy with this, I'm after making a high quality coffee table and this just isn't going to do it.

 

[gasman]

Hi Paul
I sympathise with you - but actually I have found it is extra ordinarily difficult to get sufficiently wide heartwood in walnut to make anything like a table. I have made lots of English walnut things over the years - the latest of which is this bookshelf

It is a mixture of heartwood and sapwood as the boards came. Oiling it (Hardwaxoil) makes the colours much closer to each other and over the years it will get closer still.
If you are still worried then another solution is to stain the wood. I use Vandyke crystals which are derived from walnuts anyway - it gives a completely undetectable finish in terms of the colour. There is a thread on here somewhere http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/post1119083.html?hilit=gasman dining table#p1119083
but here's the final piccy

Hope it works out for you
Cheers Mark

 

[RobinBHM]

you can sometimes buy superprime walnut which has less sap on 1 face.

Brooks Bros sometimes have it.

 

[marcros]

Not sure which grading standards Marcos is referring to, if you specify the grade / shtabdard that you want, it certainly would be a defect, the standards normal stipulate that sizes should be given for just Heart wood.

https://issuu.com/nhla/docs/2015_rulebook_final page 28 of the book. so it depends on whether it is steamed- my understanding is that it generally is, and what grade the stuff is.

 

[paul11]

Thanks guys for all the great comments, I have just phoned the guy and he also stated that sapwood is acceptable so I told him I would see him tomorrow morning and we can have a chat about it.

 

[custard]

Marcros is right, steamed ABW is normally sold on a "sap no fault" basis. Having said that the timber yard has dumped on you the stuff rejected by all the buyers who selected in person, and the stuff the yard daren't send out to their bigger customers. It's not technically out of spec for ABW, it's just the bottom of the barrel.

There are a very small number of timber yards in the UK that sometimes have waney edged, unsteamed ABW. And if you're lucky enough to be there in person when a fresh delivery arrives you can pick through wide boards and find gems like this,

Unfortunately sap will always be an issue with the majority of ABW, hence steaming which minimises the colour difference, although at the cost of dulling down the grain and leaving it a bit flat and lifeless. If the colour difference is still too much then the best remedy is generally a coat of dilute stain across the entire piece followed by additional dilute coats just on the sap sections, feathering these into the heartwood. Use a water based, dark Walnut aniline dye. It's not perfect, because aniline dye will fade in sunlight, but don't be tempted to use spirit based stain because of the "lightfast" claim, it's a tiny, tiny bit more lightfast than water soluble but far, far more complex to use because it dries so fast that you can't retain the wet edge for feathering. Unless you've got plenty of practical finishing experience under your belt stick to water based. You really don't want to mess around with pigmented stains, the grain on unfilled Walnut is just too coarse so you'll get lots of dark flecks which looks like complete carp.

There was another thread recently about Walnut which you might find useful,

british-walnut-prices-t106138.html

Good luck!

 

[marcros]

Marcros is right, steamed ABW is normally sold on a "sap no fault" basis. Having said that the timber yard has dumped on you the stuff rejected by all the buyers who selected in person, and the stuff the yard daren't send out to their bigger customers. It's not technically out of spec for ABW, it's just the bottom of the barrel.

There are a very small number of timber yards in the UK that sometimes have waney edged, unsteamed ABW. And if you're lucky enough to be there in person when a fresh delivery arrives you can pick through wide boards and find gems like this,



Unfortunately sap will always be an issue with the majority of ABW, hence steaming which minimises the colour difference, although at the cost of dulling down the grain and leaving it a bit flat and lifeless. If the colour difference is still too much then the best remedy is generally a coat of dilute stain across the entire piece followed by additional dilute coats just on the sap sections, feathering these into the heartwood. Use a water based, dark Walnut aniline dye. It's not perfect, because aniline dye will fade in sunlight, but don't be tempted to use spirit based stain because of the "lightfast" claim, it's a tiny, tiny bit more lightfast than water soluble but far, far more complex to use because it dries so fast that you can't retain the wet edge for feathering. Unless you've got plenty of practical finishing experience under your belt stick to water based. You really don't want to mess around with pigmented stains, the grain on unfilled Walnut is just too coarse so you'll get lots of dark flecks which looks like complete carp.

There was another thread recently about Walnut which you might find useful,

british-walnut-prices-t106138.html

Good luck!

Custard

Have you any experience with these dyes. http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/w ... 7-2013.pdf

They claim to be light fast, and you can mix them in water. I have a couple that I bought back with me from Texas that I have used a few times, but I have no reference as to whether the light fast qualities are mere sales puff or have some genuine merit.

 

[Myfordman]

I've successfully used van **** crystal stain to colour the sapwood in ABW when presented with this problem.

 

[custard]

Custard

Have you any experience with these dyes. http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/w ... 7-2013.pdf

I've never heard of this before, but I'd be really interested in testing it against an aniline dye. Do you know of a UK supplier?

 

[marcros]

Custard

Have you any experience with these dyes. http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/w ... 7-2013.pdf

I've never heard of this before, but I'd be really interested in testing it against an aniline dye. Do you know of a UK supplier?

sadly not that i am aware of. I could put a bottle in the post for you to try it out- probably easier than trying to decant some out. if you would like me to do so, drop me your address.

 

[paul11]

Marcros is right, steamed ABW is normally sold on a "sap no fault" basis. Having said that the timber yard has dumped on you the stuff rejected by all the buyers who selected in person, and the stuff the yard daren't send out to their bigger customers. It's not technically out of spec for ABW, it's just the bottom of the barrel.

This is exactly what I was thinking.

 

[iNewbie]

Custard

Have you any experience with these dyes. http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/w ... 7-2013.pdf

I've never heard of this before, but I'd be really interested in testing it against an aniline dye. Do you know of a UK supplier?

This is the same finish/brand as quite a few Guitar builders use - Stewmac also sell it in another bottle. I've never seen a UK supplier. Its nothing like an analine - J E Mosers, etc...

There is another quality metalised dye although its expensive. Sherwin Williams Universal - Builder Ron Kirn uses this.

http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/product ... centrates/

 

[Adam9453]

You really need to specify super prime grade when purchasing ABW as the usual timber grading scale doesn't rule out high percentage sapwood boards.
The best option when the appearance is critical is to select the boards in person.
If you're not happy with what has been supplied, take it back and either get a refund or exchange it for super prime grade (at no doubt higher cost)

 

[doctor Bob]

Looks like you have cut 2 boards in half, they may refuse to take them back. Next time on expensive boards your better off trimming an end to see what your getting, they'll still take them back then.

 

[paul11]

Took the wood back this morning and the guy insisted there was nothing wrong with it and as we all know that is total BS. Told him it was no good for what I wanted and then he gave me my money back and he was not happy doing this. I wouldn't waste my time making anything out of that wood even if it was free and the people that say this is ok are the one's cutting the trees down and just trying to screw us for every penny they can. You wont see many Joiners asking for it at £81 a cubic foot + VAT.