Is there a non-destructive method to replace the door within this frame?

[fleyh]

Following excellent advice received in my previous thread, I'm now facing a more challenging (for me) door situation and assessing potential solutions.
I'm seeking guidance on which of my proposed solutions align with accepted practices for such door frames.

Key observations (zoom in on the photo):

The entire door frame is leaning to the right:
- Left frame side is 15mm from true vertical
- Right frame side is 11mm from true vertical

Top of the frame is rising from left to right:
- Left side is 3mm below true horizontal

The frame is flush with the surrounding wall, but the wall (and frame) leans backward:
- Top of the door frame is 6mm behind the bottom

Internal width of the frame:
- Top: 689mm
- Bottom: 690mm

Frame thickness: 30mm

Replacement door size (standard bathroom door size): 1981 x 686

I'd like to avoid plasterboard work due to my limitations and costs. Time is not a concern for woodworking/painting tasks.

Options I am considering for correcting the frame:

Option 1 (adjust all 3 frame sides to a square box):
a. Shave left frame side (bottom to -15mm at the top)
b. Add timber strip to the right frame side (strip paint, +11mm at the top)
c. Add timber strip to lower right frame side by 3mm (strip paint from top, level it)

Option 2 (shave all frame sides to make them square and vertical):
- Do not think it is viable due to excessive width after shaving both sides (716mm vs. door's 686mm)

Option 3 (grow all sides inside to make them square and vertical):
- Reduces overall door width (664mm), narrowing the entry

Option 4 (do not modify the frame, scribe the door to the frame)
- I do not think this is viable because existing (Parallelogram) frame is already wider than the door.

Seeking guidance on the best course of action.

 

[Woody Alan]

From what I can see there is a secondary piece of frame (inch board) packing out on the right, assuming that is attached to studwork I would take the opportunity to have the whole thing out and start again, it will be easier in the long run than trying to shave bits of and add things and cut down doors. If that's not what it is I would still have the whole thing out but that's just my opinion. I once did this on my previous house which was solid walls and found they had packed several inches with timber, I think they were going to fit 2'6" door and then found there wasn't enough space for the swing arc.

 

[Jacob]

Following excellent advice received in my previous thread, I'm now facing a more challenging (for me) door situation and assessing potential solutions.
I'm seeking guidance on which of my proposed solutions align with accepted practices for such door frames.

Key observations (zoom in on the photo):

The entire door frame is leaning to the right:
- Left frame side is 15mm from true vertical
- Right frame side is 11mm from true vertical

Top of the frame is rising from left to right:
- Left side is 3mm below true horizontal

The frame is flush with the surrounding wall, but the wall (and frame) leans backward:
- Top of the door frame is 6mm behind the bottom

Internal width of the frame:
- Top: 689mm
- Bottom: 690mm

Frame thickness: 30mm

Replacement door size (standard bathroom door size): 1981 x 686

I'd like to avoid plasterboard work due to my limitations and costs. Time is not a concern for woodworking/painting tasks.

Options I am considering for correcting the frame:

Option 1 (adjust all 3 frame sides to a square box):
a. Shave left frame side (bottom to -15mm at the top)
b. Add timber strip to the right frame side (strip paint, +11mm at the top)
c. Add timber strip to lower right frame side by 3mm (strip paint from top, level it)

Option 2 (shave all frame sides to make them square and vertical):
- Do not think it is viable due to excessive width after shaving both sides (716mm vs. door's 686mm)

Option 3 (grow all sides inside to make them square and vertical):
- Reduces overall door width (664mm), narrowing the entry

Option 4 (do not modify the frame, scribe the door to the frame)
- I do not think this is viable because existing (Parallelogram) frame is already wider than the door.

Seeking guidance on the best course of action.

View attachment 164931

Have you thought of putting the old door back?

 

[fleyh]

Have you thought of putting the old door back?

The photo in my initial message shows the old door in its existing frame. The door is still in place, and I haven't removed or altered it yet. The reason for replacing this door is that it now the wrong design, compared to the new doors I've installed on this floor, and the gaps around it make it unsightly.

 

[Doug71]

Does the frame have a rebate (casing) or is it flat with a lath on (lining)?

If you don't want to mess with it too much and can stand looking at it leaning sideways just fit the door as is, the modern way seems to be give doors 3mm clearance all round.

Don't worry about it leaning back, it will stop it catching the floor when open, only thing is if it's leaning too far it will be self closing.

 

[fleyh]

From what I can see there is a secondary piece of frame (inch board) packing out on the right, assuming that is attached to studwork I would take the opportunity to have the whole thing out and start again, it will be easier in the long run than trying to shave bits of and add things and cut down doors. If that's not what it is I would still have the whole thing out but that's just my opinion. I once did this on my previous house which was solid walls and found they had packed several inches with timber, I think they were going to fit 2'6" door and then found there wasn't enough space for the swing arc.

Hello @Woody Alan,
Thank you for the suggestion. I believe you are correct and the whole thing can be removed.

If the existing frame were to be removed, would you typically anticipate needing to buy a new frame, or is it usually possible to reposition the original frame adequately?

 

[fleyh]

Does the frame have a rebate (casing) or is it flat with a lath on (lining)?

The door frame is flush with the surrounding plasterboard/wall and doesn't have any rebates. The architraves were previously in place, but they have been removed (with plans to replace them later).

If you don't want to mess with it too much and can stand looking at it leaning sideways just fit the door as is, the modern way seems to be give doors 3mm clearance all round.

If I were to install the door as it is, would this potentially lead to issues with the door opening or closing on its own? All the other doors I've replaced so far remain in the position they are left, and it would be quite unfortunate if this one door behaved differently.

Don't worry about it leaning back, it will stop it catching the floor when open, only thing is if it's leaning too far it will be self closing.

That's good to know. Thank you very much.

 

[rob1693]

Most of door frames in my house were quite out of true,in long run although more work easier to fit a new door lining than trying to fit to current ones

 

[Woody Alan]

Hello @Woody Alan,
Thank you for the suggestion. I believe you are correct and the whole thing can be removed.

If the existing frame were to be removed, would you typically anticipate needing to buy a new frame, or is it usually possible to reposition the original frame adequately?

Well... That would depend on a few things, the quality of the original timber, is the top rail set at your desired width as it should be rebated. Have they used cut nails gone rusty so the amount of force required will be destructive. It is possible to use a hole cutter around the nails to release the frame but risk damage to hole cutter. then there'll be lots of making good hinge cut outs lock position/style, so the answer is get it removed and then make the decision. You may want to check upright in the perpendicular plane (is the wall upright) while you are at it and check for twist (are both sides equally upright with the wall) which can be tweaked out at this stage, and adjusted in the architrave. Doors swinging due to not being upright is a real pain.
Use a magnet to find and mark all the nails/screws. To add I would be looking at a new frame probably.

 

[fleyh]

Well... That would depend on a few things, the quality of the original timber, is the top rail set at your desired width as it should be rebated.

yes, the width at the top is OK.

Have they used cut nails gone rusty so the amount of force required will be destructive. It is possible to use a hole cutter around the nails to release the frame but risk damage to hole cutter. then there'll be lots of making good hinge cut outs lock position/style, so the answer is get it removed and then make the decision.

Understood. Thank you.

You may want to check upright in the perpendicular plane (is the wall upright) while you are at it and check for twist (are both sides equally upright with the wall) which can be tweaked out at this stage, and adjusted in the architrave.

The wall is leaning backwards, which is why the door frame (being flush with the wall) is leaning backwards as well. There is a 6mm difference between the top and the bottom the frame.

It did not occur to me to check for twist. Thank you very much for mentioning this.

Use a magnet to find and mark all the nails/screws.

Good idea. Thank you.

 

[Doug71]

A new casing probably only adds about 23mm to each side of the door so if you do take out the existing frame and replace with a new casing there should be enough space to get it plumb without too much more work.
How thick is the wall?

 

[fleyh]

A new casing probably only adds about 23mm to each side of the door so if you do take out the existing frame and replace with a new casing there should be enough space to get it plumb without too much more work.

That's good to know. I will need to make some calculations.

How thick is the wall?

It's a bit challenging to provide an exact measurement, but I would estimate the wall thickness to be around 65-68mm.

 

[johnnyb]

just rip it out and put a new one in square and level. that way you can fix the issues. no plastering required if your careful.did one last week took me all day with fitting the door etc

 

[johnnyb]

have you ever put a frame in?

 

[Bingy man]

Yeah agree with rip out and start from scratch, it’s a lot easier in the long run , door linings are not too expensive . Better than all that trimming and planing -as above if you’re careful removing the existing frame there shouldn’t be any major damage and the architraves will cover any minor issues..

 

[macca]

100% remove existing and start with new lining, removing the old shouldn't be too bad, either cut the old lining, ( if you cut at an angle, for arguments sake 45 degrees, it will make removing a lot easier than a square cut) if the nails are being a bugg*r you should be able to get a hacksaw blade or multi tool in between the lining and the wall to cut old nails (skip to this method if you really want to keep the old lining)
when you're putting in the new lining, assemble it all first, use a couple of battens or scraps to pin across the bottom of the lining to hold your uprights parallel, fix header first, plumb one upright and for speed you can eye through from this one to plumb up the other side (picture it similar to using winding sticks to check for twist)

 

[macca]

justa quicky, when you're checking for plumb check twice and swap your level end for end to make sure the vial is accurate, I only mention this as your write up is showing the jambs to be 15mm and 11mm out plumb respectively but the width top and bottom only being 1mm different I would be expecting 4mm if that makes sense.
could just be parallax error somewhere along the line or your level may be out a couple mill

 

[fleyh]

have you ever put a frame in?

No, I haven't. That's why I'm hesitant and would prefer to explore all possibilities of fixing the existing frame first.

 

[johnnyb]

I'll describe how to put a frame in but only if it's what your doing.

 

[fleyh]

justa quicky, when you're checking for plumb check twice and swap your level end for end to make sure the vial is accurate,

Yes. Will do, thank you.

I only mention this as your write up is showing the jambs to be 15mm and 11mm out plumb respectively but the width top and bottom only being 1mm different I would be expecting 4mm if that makes sense.
could just be parallax error somewhere along the line or your level may be out a couple mill

If you mean the horizontal (top) portion of the frame - left side is 3mm lower than the right one. It could be 4mm as you wrote, it is hard to measure precisely and thick uneven layer of paint does not help either.

100% remove existing and start with new lining, removing the old shouldn't be too bad, either cut the old lining, ( if you cut at an angle, for arguments sake 45 degrees, it will make removing a lot easier than a square cut) if the nails are being a bugg*r you should be able to get a hacksaw blade or multi tool in between the lining and the wall to cut old nails (skip to this method if you really want to keep the old lining)
when you're putting in the new lining, assemble it all first, use a couple of battens or scraps to pin across the bottom of the lining to hold your uprights parallel, fix header first, plumb one upright and for speed you can eye through from this one to plumb up the other side (picture it similar to using winding sticks to check for twist)

Thank you very much for taking the time to provide such detailed instructions. This is exactly the kind of advice I was seeking.