Is it worth trying to sharpen my Irwin handsaws?

[redefined_cycles]

I don't have the tools for saw sharpening but they're both new enough that there's no mechanical slack felt yet. I think I knackered em when cutting through a tree stump or two. Try to cut down on landfill so wondered if it's worth it learning how to sharpen these...

Or do I need to invest in a better saw or two thatihht be more worthy or sharpening tools?

Thanks...

 

[D_W]

Need to see a picture of the teeth. If they're impulse hardened and japanese shaped, you can use a cheap chinese diamond file and sharpen just the facet on the top inside part of the teeth and get back sharpness at least as good as the initial teeth. Not a difficult task to do the sharpening, either.

 

[Inspector]

Most of them are hard point saws, meaning the teeth have been hardened, that are not meant to be sharpened. The teeth are too hard for files and are not traditionally shaped. They are unfortunately meant to be disposable. You can use the blades as cabinet scrapers, either rectangular or curved shapes. Cut them up with a thin cutoff wheel in an angle grinder.

Pete

 

[Terry - Somerset]

This will no doubt prompt a debate over the relative merits of hardpoint saws vs the tuned traditional.

It may simply depend on what the saw is used for - with hobby/diy use a hardpoint saw will likely last years. Sharpening a cheap hardpoint saw may be difficult or impossible. There may be little point in doing so for the sake of a few pounds infrequently.

There may be other more "emotional" issues - left by close friend/relation, pleasure of using traditional tools etc.

 

[D_W]

This will no doubt prompt a debate over the relative merits of hardpoint saws vs the tuned traditional.

It may simply depend on what the saw is used for - with hobby/diy use a hardpoint saw will likely last years. Sharpening a cheap hardpoint saw may be difficult or impossible. There may be little point in doing so for the sake of a few pounds infrequently.

There may be other more "emotional" issues - left by close friend/relation, pleasure of using traditional tools etc.

Trust me, it's not hard to sharpen them. There's a bunch of facets on the ones with japanese style teeth, but only one of them needs to be sharpened to clean up all of the edges that touch wood. Once you're good at it, it takes a couple of minutes and in my experience, is best done with a file like the following ebay number.

383990291109 (that's an ebay listing for a cheap diamond feather file - there are "good" ones, but they are too expensive to make sense saving a cheap saw's teeth)

I don't know if I can explain it verbally other than to say run the file directly on the top inside facet and use a thumb or finger to keep the edge of the feather style file.

The teeth are hard, but they're nothing compared to diamonds. Even carbide isn't - if you hand hone carbide on loose diamonds in wood, you'll find out just how fast the black appears in the diamonds as if you're just honing steel.

 

[redefined_cycles]

https://www.axminstertools.com/vallorbe-precision-swiss-saw-file-extra-slim-100mm-4-951038
Thanks for the replies... So something like this (but without the China human rights abuses) as above link. Will try and post a pic in the morning of all three of the saws. Happy to buy a better saw that's more worthy and easier to sharpen from Axminster...

Usage - anywhere that I don't use the jigsaw or for really fine cuts (thats the mitre/Wickes-fine saw cos I threw away the previous Irwin). For reference, today the cuts were in some 2 x 4 along its length. That was after having done most of the width of the angled/bevelled cut with the jigsaw (I know, I shouldn't be cutting partial thickness with a JS).

Lots more cutting coming up so thought I best get advise on sharpening rather than keep buyijg anew...

 

[raffo]

https://www.axminstertools.com/vallorbe-precision-swiss-saw-file-extra-slim-100mm-4-951038

Be aware that the suggested file is a diamond coated file and also of a different profile.

 

[carpenteire2009]

I personally wouldn't bother even trying to resharpen a hardpoint saw. I find the hardpoint saws last years anyway for regular DIY use if not overly abused. As suggested when blunt they can be repurposed- I've made floor and paint scrapers out of mine in the past.

 

[hlvd]

I don't have the tools for saw sharpening but they're both new enough that there's no mechanical slack felt yet. I think I knackered em when cutting through a tree stump or two. Try to cut down on landfill so wondered if it's worth it learning how to sharpen these...

Or do I need to invest in a better saw or two thatihht be more worthy or sharpening tools?

Thanks...

Don’t bother, the teeth are too hard to be resharpened and meant to be disposed of once they’ve lost their edge, hence the term ‘Throwaway Saw’.

 

[John Hall]

Depends on how much time you have on your hands, and how much you like filing..Its quite therapeutic once you get going, but for the price of a new one,is it worth it?

 

[Jacob]

I don't have the tools for saw sharpening but they're both new enough that there's no mechanical slack felt yet. I think I knackered em when cutting through a tree stump or two. Try to cut down on landfill so wondered if it's worth it learning how to sharpen these...

Or do I need to invest in a better saw or two thatihht be more worthy or sharpening tools?

Thanks...

Have a go. You'll soon find out if it's worth the bother.

 

[Tanglefoot20]

I use a silky arborist saw with hardened teeth…used for branches up to 6”… it is highly recommended to apply olive oil to the blade after use. This breaks down any sap residue that remains on teeth and blade…thus making it appear blunt.

me

 

[rogxwhit]

It's all been said above. The Vallorbe file is for 'proper' saws, not throwaways. There is a certain therapeutic pleasure in sharpening handsaws, whether touching up or going through the whole process with levelling, shaping, sharpening and setting. Then when the teeth meet the wood and you feel their crisp, regular bite, you can take pleasure in feeling that you made it so.

Even a budget 'real' saw will probably outlast you, if you don't abuse it.

 

[Doug71]

I can't remember the last time I sharpened a saw.

I use these from Bahco, really good. You buy the handle (left or right handed) then whatever type of disposable blade you want for it,

What I like is the handle is really solid and comfy compared to the thin plastic things on some of the throw away saws.

https://www.dm-tools.co.uk/product.php/section//sn/BAHEXRL#.YygpeXbMLIU

 

[redefined_cycles]

I think that's a no then (as said before). Is the Bahco classed as a 'throwaway' type or do I go for a Silky or the likes. Yes, my teeth might have appeared blunt from sap etc (will use the olive oip trick too).

 

[D_W]

All (including silky) will benefit from sharpening.



As long as you can get to the key facet that needs sharpening. All of the hard tooth saws will dull significantly, but you may not notice it unless you have a new saw to compare. They're just quietly wasting your time. In japan, the hard tooth blades are about $5, and maybe a little more for the bigger disposables. They're not intended to be used that long - when they end up being distributed and marked up in the west and sold for $13-$25 for a replacement blade, then resharpening makes a little more sense. I don't have a big silky log saw, but wouldn't get one without the ability to sharpen it. For what they cost, you won't notice when they've lost half of their speed because it will occur over time.

 

[D_W]

I think that may actually be an Irwin saw, something that cuts faster than apple may have been a better choice for a video, but not everything in the world needs to be staged like planing and cutting soft pine. Apple is very saw resistant for its hardness, but it cuts and finishes too nicely to care about that.

 

[D_W]

re: the comment above on cutting these saws into scrapers - the plates usually used with hard tooth saws are not fully hardened, and won't make good scrapers. They can be used, but the edge life will probably be poor.

the reason the saws are underhardened is simple - it keeps newbies and hardware store buyers from breaking them easily and probably cuts the blanking and grinding costs. The teeth are hardened separately on the surface.

If you can resharpen a saw enough to get through the impulse hardened layer, you can pat yourself on the back. Otherwise, when it takes less time to resharpen something and you can use it right away, that's always a better plan even money-neutral.

 

[IWW]

re: the comment above on cutting these saws into scrapers - the plates usually used with hard tooth saws are not fully hardened, and won't make good scrapers. They can be used, but the edge life will probably be poor.

the reason the saws are underhardened is simple - it keeps newbies and hardware store buyers from breaking them easily and probably cuts the blanking and grinding costs. The teeth are hardened separately on the surface.

David, my own experience does not agree with that. Hard-point saws in general may not be quite as hard as some old "conventional" saws were, but they are certainly not tempered significantly softer than the average saw made in the first half of last century. You cannot have them much different, imo, because they would be too easily kinked (particularly by the type of user they are mainly aimed at!).

I've re-purposed many a discarded hard point after cutting off the hardened section (which only extends a mm at most below the gullets) & cutting in new teeth. The blades I've used were mostly Irwin, but I've used other brands as well, and as far as I can tell from the way they file & wear, all but one has been quite satisfactory (& that was due to excesive thickness of the plate). I've had some in use for years & mostly long forgotten which are recycled hardpoints & which are made from "proper" saw plate!

A few years ago, I bought the cheapest hardpoint "backsaw" I could find for a little demonstration. I say "backsaw" because the back was a flimsy bit of about 22 gauge metal that wouldn't noticeably stiffen your average jellyfish. My plan was to show that practise is more important than the saw & anyone should be able to saw perfectly acceptable dovetails with any saw if they applied themselves to the task (channeling Jacob here? ).

Well, I got my come-uppance there - the saw I bought (~$15), which had modified Japanese style teeth would barely cut butter, and worse, it absolutely refused to hew to the line no matter how I fought it! I had a go at the teeth with a diamond file & improved it slightly, but the jagged cut it left didn't do much for the fit "off saw":



So I made it into a "real" saw, with a proper spine instead of the useless bit of tinplate it came with:



It now cust cleanly, twice as fast, and straight. I managed a set of D/Ts that are a bit more acceptable:



So I did end up with a decent saw, and a better idea of just how bad things have become in the saw world!

You can do good work with a modern hardpoint (but choose a reliable brand), however, there is a huge difference between even the better ones & a good old well-sharpened backsaw in all sorts of ways. As pointed out by D.W., hardpont hand saws are like carbide-tipped circular saws - you tend to spend a lot of time sawing with an increasingly dull saw before you realise the darned thing needs sharpening or replacement!

Cheers,

 

[D_W]

I'll have to experiment with some plates from hard tooth saws. I'll admit I usually throw them away. I think to make something that will saw, the bar is lower than a good scraper, and the couple that I've ground off and filed down haven't made good scrapers compared to 1095.

However, I've never had the fascination with hard saws that the guru and boutique toolmakers have. Some of the lower grade saws are really soft - like the gents saws from germany - but they cut fine. They just need sharpening a little more often, but sharpening is almost an after thought because a stroke of the file per tooth and they're sharp again.

I'm not going to go on a big experimenting journey with scrapers, but do wish that they would last longer and hold an undamaged burr longer.