Investment! Veritas LA Jacks gain 78% since '07

[HeathRobinson]

Hopefully you took the 'investment' part of the topic title as the tongue in cheek that it is meant to be. I've been doing some digging to see how prices have changed for some tools and had some surprising results. I will make no attempt to explain the rises, nor provide opinion. I merely present the facts.

For old prices I primarily used some of Alf's hand tool reviews from 2004/05 where she has kindly provided the prices at the time. I've used Axminster's prices for the present pricing. Each entry is linked back to the original review.

• Veritas Low Angle Block - £81.08 ('04) up to £138.93. Gained 71%
• Veritas Bevel Up Smoother - £145 ('05) up to £234.84. Gained 62%
• Veritas MkII Honing Guide - £36.50 ('05) up to £41.06. Gained 12%
• Lie Nielsen Scrub Plane - £170 ('04) down to £131.97. Lost 22% (Lack of demand?)
• Veritas Scrub - £81.94 ('05) up to £126.55. Gained 54%
• Veritas Low Angle Jack - £131.60 ('07) up to £233.86. Gained 78%
• Veritas Spoke Shaves - £36 (on special) or £48 ('04) up to £80.20. Gained 122% or 67%
• Veritas Router Plane - £145.95 ('05) up to £145.79. Stable 0%

I'm not necessarily after these particular tools (yet!) they're just ones that I clicked on randomly from the hand tools review list set up by Alf and which happened to have prices in them. I'm sure there are many more. A pity I couldn't find more Lie Nielsen prices too. Maybe you can fill me in with some data on that front?

Simon

PS. I have edited the list to reflect the fact that £36 for the Veritas spoke shaves was some kind of introductory offer as indicated by various replies below. Doesn't take away the fact that £36 was the price at some point though, so have supplied both results.

 

[bugbear]

Hopefully you took the 'investment' part of the topic title as the tongue in cheek that it is meant to be. I've been doing some digging to see how prices have changed for some tools and had some surprising results. I will make no attempt to explain the rises, nor provide opinion. I merely present the facts.

For old prices I primarily used some of Alf's hand tool reviews from 2004/05 where she has kindly provided the prices at the time. I've used Axminster's prices for the present pricing. Each entry is linked back to the original review.

• Veritas Low Angle Block - £81.08 ('04) up to £138.93. Gained 71%
• Veritas Bevel Up Smoother - £145 ('05) up to £234.84. Gained 62%
• Veritas MkII Honing Guide - £36.50 ('05) up to £41.06. Gained 12%
• Lie Nielsen Scrub Plane - £170 ('04) down to £131.97. Lost 22% (Lack of demand?)
• Veritas Scrub - £81.94 ('05) up to £126.55. Gained 54%
• Veritas Low Angle Jack - £131.60 ('07) up to £233.86. Gained 78%
• Veritas Spoke Shaves - £36 ('04) up to £80.20. Gained 122%
• Veritas Router Plane - £145.95 ('05) up to £145.79. Stable 0%

I'm not necessarily after these particular tools (yet!) they're just ones that I clicked on randomly from the hand tools review list set up by Alf and which happened to have prices in them. I'm sure there are many more. A pity I couldn't find more Lie Nielsen prices too. Maybe you can fill me in with some data on that front?

Simon

I think many of the "old" Veritas prices were launch offers.

BugBear

 

[gidon]

Hopefully you took the 'investment' part of the topic title as the tongue in cheek that it is meant to be. I've been doing some digging to see how prices have changed for some tools and had some surprising results. I will make no attempt to explain the rises, nor provide opinion. I merely present the facts.

For old prices I primarily used some of Alf's hand tool reviews from 2004/05 where she has kindly provided the prices at the time. I've used Axminster's prices for the present pricing. Each entry is linked back to the original review.

• Veritas Low Angle Block - £81.08 ('04) up to £138.93. Gained 71%
• Veritas Bevel Up Smoother - £145 ('05) up to £234.84. Gained 62%
• Veritas MkII Honing Guide - £36.50 ('05) up to £41.06. Gained 12%
• Lie Nielsen Scrub Plane - £170 ('04) down to £131.97. Lost 22% (Lack of demand?)
• Veritas Scrub - £81.94 ('05) up to £126.55. Gained 54%
• Veritas Low Angle Jack - £131.60 ('07) up to £233.86. Gained 78%
• Veritas Spoke Shaves - £36 ('04) up to £80.20. Gained 122%
• Veritas Router Plane - £145.95 ('05) up to £145.79. Stable 0%

I'm not necessarily after these particular tools (yet!) they're just ones that I clicked on randomly from the hand tools review list set up by Alf and which happened to have prices in them. I'm sure there are many more. A pity I couldn't find more Lie Nielsen prices too. Maybe you can fill me in with some data on that front?

Simon

Wow - not followed the prices - had to check you hadn't made a mistake - and you're right my LA Jack is £100 more than when I bought it only a couple of years ago! And BB it wasn't on special offer that I recall.

Cheers

Gidon

 

[Neil]

My LA Jack was £121.13 (a January sale at Rutlands I think) so its now 'worth' almost double what I paid for it.

BB, these were all 'normal' prices - the only launch offer I can remember out of these items was the honing guide, which was £30 for a few weeks IIRC. I think there was a bit of a mistake on the pricing of the spokeshaves and they went up to just under £50 not long after launch.

Prepare for more price increases with the way Sterling is going!

Cheers,
Neil

 

[MIGNAL]

A fellow tool aficionado recently commented on the current price of the Veritas spokeshaves. £36 now seems like an absolute bargain. Still, I did buy my Veritas apron plane in time. It's not far off double what I paid.

 

[ike]

£36 for the spokeshave was an offer price. They were about £48 thereafter.

 

[custard]

The pound has fallen 30% against the US dollar over the past year (bit less versus the Canadian dollar). The pound is now poised on the edge of some significant historic support levels, in other words if it falls even a bit from here then some pundits claim it would then fall a lot further, maybe even £1=$1!

Who knows, today's Veritas and LN prices may seem like real bargains in a year's time!

 

[wizer]

I invested in a couple of Veritas planes just before the price hike in Sept. I'd think thrice before buying at these prices.

 

[HeathRobinson]

I'd think thrice before buying at these prices.

Quite right, wizer. That is some of the reason I was doing this research in the first place. Part of me wanted to dismiss the rises as an effect of the devalued Pound but I do believe they reached these levels prior to the devaluation. There is more to come in other words!

Even at these historically bad exchange rates one can still order the tools direct from Lee Valley in Canada and probably break even or maybe be quids in based on the INTRODUCTORY prices. Now that really is saying something.

I wish I could find some more data on how Lie Nielsen prices have changed in the UK now.

 

[woodbloke]

I'd think thrice before buying at these prices.

Quite right, wizer. That is some of the reason I was doing this research in the first place. Part of me wanted to dismiss the rises as an effect of the devalued Pound but I do believe they reached these levels prior to the devaluation. There is more to come in other words!

Even at these historically bad exchange rates one can still order the planes direct from Lee Valley in Canada and probably break even or maybe be quids in based on the INTRODUCTORY prices. Now that really is saying something.

I wish I could find some more data on how Lie Nielsen prices have changed in the UK now.

I've never done this, but the danger here is that you can get clobbered by HMRC etc and end up paying as much.
Much better to have won your LV LA jack anyway ...making a sharp exit :lol: - Rob

 

[Philly]

Gents
I'm sure we discussesd this in an earlier thread (but I can't find it). From talking to people in the industry I heard that both Lie-Nielsen and Veritas have increased their prices by about a third. This was due to two things - there being no price increases for many years and the changing money markets.
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[John. B]

I think is just shows how much overpriced they all are. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[Inspector]

I think is just shows how much overpriced they all are. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

They are not overpriced. You are just underfunded, as most of us unfortunately are!

I prefer to fund a manufacturer that pay their employees good living wages and provide safe working conditions like, I hope you work in. Otherwise your option to continue to buy the Groz / Anant type imports until there is no money left in the "Western world" is available to you. Now I'll fall off my soapbox. :lol:

 

[graween]

Hi.

Let's pick 2004 as it's a good start for Alf's tests.

Philly, since 2004 the USD went lower against the GBP.
In Jan 2004 1£ = 1.84$, and untill this summer (crisis) went up to 1£=2$.
For me it means that the £ give 8.7% more value during the time. So with same us prices they should have gone lower in UK from 8.7%.
But I don't know where LN or LV do buy they're cmmodities and then the impact of exchange rates on their costs.

However having worked for 3 years (in IT department) for a French bank on the foreign exchange market, such companies can cover themselves againt the exchange risk and they surely do. At least for a know period (that could also explain why prices have gone up suddleny, if they're cover stopped, but this is only some thoughts or theory, probably not founded (not sure for that word :lol: ))

You guys also don't mention the inflation rate (in France it's about 1.5-2% a year since 2004). So for 5 years count at least 10%.

However even with that more than 70% for LV LAJ si huge ! That means that if we count 4 years from the article date 'till this summer it measns about 14%-15% of increase per year .... that's huge ...

Well ... who really knows why the prices went up like that ...

 

[Pete W]

Well ... who really knows why the prices went up like that ...

I'd guess that metals, manufacturing and tooling, and labour costs have a lot to do with it. I believe steel, nickel, copper and aluminium were all at record prices last summer. Of course, they've all plummeted lately but those new prices will take an age to work through the system. I wouldn't expect prices to fall much over the coming year.

 

[beech1948]

I think that the basis of the original post was fine but we have diverted into the realm of imagination about pricing.

The core question is about the value returned to the woodworker by spending large amounts of cash on some of these tools.

The prices asked for by Axminster and others for LN and Veritas tools are now at such a level that they do not represent good value. The price seems to have been driven by the last 6-7 years of relative affluence towards very high and unreasonable levels. Now as we approach much less affluence the prices seem too high and of no value.

I own a Veritas low angle block plane which does its job but nothing more than that. To see an average 15% gain per year in price simply means that marketing brains have baffled woodworking nous. OR that woodworking bling has become so important that these tools sell to the well off.

Rant over.

Alan

 

[Paul Chapman]

When you consider that planes made by LV, LN and Clifton, even with regular use, will out-last the user and go on producing good results for future generations, I reckon they still represent good value for money.

Whether you can afford all the ones you want to buy is another matter....

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[custard]

I reckon they still represent good value for money.
Whether you can afford all the ones you want to buy is another matter....

Nicely put!

 

[graween]

Hi Guys.

I agree with the two of you Paul and Beech.
I think values wen High probably because of the sucess of theses planes. Also they're kind of good investments since they'll last for many generations if well taken care of.
Also actually one could almost sell it used at a higher price than on bought it ! :lol: Not a bad investments compared to Stock Exchange Markets.

I'm still interested in understanding how the prices of LN or LV are composed when the tools are on sale in the shops. You can cover without risk against most of the given sources as high prices like commodities and foreign exchange rates. For that of course you must buy important quantities of metal an others.
I guess that (at least for LV) they've developped a lot of new tools, and that costs a lot. Also they have a big catalog, and I guess not all items sells well, so some best sellers cover the worst sellers, with some benefits.
Metal and other commodities have gone up, but I'm not sure they represent so much in the final price. Engineering also cost a lot. Flattening the blades and planes soles is expensive I guess to reach high tolerances. Also cryongenics blades treamtments are I guess exepensive.
Well they're only thoughts.
That's why I repeat who knows (except LN or LV people) what really makes the selling price.

After like I said, I buy these tools thinking that my kids will use them when I'll be gone long. With controlled budget every year I buy some new stuffs. My real fear is to get these things stolen, as most of them where purchased abroad, and probably not covered by insurances...

Putting money in quality tools is to my point of view never lost (and I insist on that when I explain to my wife).

Have a nice day.

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi.



You guys also don't mention the inflation rate (in France it's about 1.5-2% a year since 2004). So for 5 years count at least 10%....

I don't know what the French is for inflation, in this sense, but in the uk it doesn't always mean higher wages, over the same period! In fact, it usually doesn't!

:wink: