India’s successful Moon Landing

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Ignore the provocative title, it’s a good watch and very interesting…..does this remind you of anything? Why facts don’t have any influence on some peoples perspective? A theory created by a guy fighting against the Nazis

The obvious modern equivalent is the attitude to immigrants. Very similar patterns of behaviour being displayed, little concentration camps proposed, indifference to deaths in the Channel, regular random attacks.
Should be very alarming.
Encouraging hate, Lee Anderson/Suella Braverman style, is a popular tactic with right wing govts, as it distracts attention from their own failings and seeks to blame others, especially defenceless minorities.
Ditto the right wing media - remember when "single mothers on benefits" was their favourite hate target?
 
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I think part of the problem is the notion that people "create" wealth. Most of the really rich people create wealth in the same way that a magnet "creates" iron filings, or Genghis Khan "created" land.
At the bottom layer there's stuff you grow or raise, stuff you dig up or extract from the atmosphere. Then processing and making goods, transport, storage etc. Hospitality, care, cleaning, grooming(even the hairdressers and telephone sanitizers mocked by Douglas Adams add some value). Fixing stuff, recycling stuff, blah blah blah, all in no particular order of merit. All these people and more could be said to add to the wealth of a country, or indeed our planet, and forgive me if I've missed out whatever worthy thing you happen to do or have done.
Then we have the Duke of Westminster, options and future traders, hedge fund managers, investment bankers, the other Jacob etc. These people don't create wealth, they gather up the wealth that already exists into small or large piles.
The red end of the spectrum is probably unsustainable, because we need some motivation to achieve, and the blue end is also unsustainable because we'd need constant infinite growth, which is also problematical, otherwise we could all become fabulously rich by simply starting chain letters. What we seem to do is to steer a drunken zigzag walk that keeps us somewhere in the middle by lurching alternately left and right. It's how two party politics works, apparently. The problem now is that we have almost zero politicians on either side who have any principles or beliefs beyond catching votes at the next election.
I think we're screwed, basically.
 
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I think is also worth a good watch, I studied this subject many years ago, it made me very humble and appreciative of how little I know, and how much I had and have to learn

 
@John Brown Now you’re showing your age, Douglas Adams, Hitch Hikers Guide to the galaxy. Funny how much of the satire is becoming every day life! I was lucky enough to meet him many years ago.



I also like the Life of Brian for this and the Judeas people Front: what was once considered ridiculous satire is now main stream politics.

 
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@John Brown Now you’re showing your age, Douglas Adams, Hitch Hikers Guide to the galaxy. Funny how much of the satire is becoming every day life! I was lucky enough to meet him many years ago.



I also like the Life of Brian for this and the Judeas people Front: what was once considered ridiculous satire is now main stream politics.


And dear old Alf G, still with us loud, strong, and stupid, even chipping in here occasionally, under an assumed name!

 
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The obvious modern equivalent is the attitude to immigrants. Very similar patterns of behaviour being displayed, little concentration camps proposed, indifference to deaths in the Channel, regular random attacks.
Should be very alarming.
Encouraging hate, Lee Anderson/Suella Braverman style, is a popular tactic with right wing govts, as it distracts attention from their own failings and seeks to blame others, especially defenceless minorities.
Ditto the right wing media - remember when "single mothers on benefits" was their favourite hate target?
erewego! Fresh off the press today.
How low can the UK government get?
Suella Braverman says ‘we will do whatever it takes’ if Strasbourg thwarts Rwanda plan
 
Tags? We should take DNA samples and iris photos as well. They are economic migrants, they didn't have to leave war torn France and if they don't like it the choice is theirs - no one forced them into the boats. I know of no one who thinks even one of these people should be allowed into this Country, and I don't think this area is any different to other areas.

Everyone who publicly says differently should automatically have their income tax rate doubled to pay for them.
 
Tags? We should take DNA samples and iris photos as well. They are economic migrants, they didn't have to leave war torn France and if they don't like it the choice is theirs - no one forced them into the boats. I know of no one who thinks even one of these people should be allowed into this Country, and I don't think this area is any different to other areas.

Everyone who publicly says differently should automatically have their income tax rate doubled to pay for them.
This is how fascism begins. Couple that with top tories arguing against human rights acts, criticising the law when it disagrees with them, even criticising fire prevention measures as excessive - the government which presided over the Grenfell Tower disaster!!! which is still in progress and accusations made against the immigrant residents themselves.
We are moving very steadily in a very dishonourable direction.
 
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This is how fascism begins.
But as your a strong socialist you will appreciate that there is but a cigaret paper thickness between the ideology of fascism and socialism. For many, the philosophy is virtually identical. So, it’s interesting that you feel that it’s a problem for fascism to rear its head? I keep reminding you Hitler was the head of a socialist party.
 
We need to control our borders.

Alternative - the UK becomes a destination of choice until the quality and economics of existence in the UK means it is no longer attractive. Not a good idea from my perspective.

We also have both moral and international obligations to help those genuinely seeking asylum.

No major political party has resolved these conflicting goals - public opinion is split and often extreme, clear policy may alienate potential voters, desire to avoid international condemnation.

Our friends on the other side of the channel will not materially help in controlling the flow despite all the fine words and money - they are fundamentally happy to offshore an asylum problem.

The solution adopted by Braverman seeks to make the UK an unattractive place to claim asylum whilst continuing to pay lip service to concern for legalities and human rights - hence "prison" ships, Rwanda, electronic tagging etc.

Other political parties, say nothing bar predictable criticism. This is probably their best strategy - I don't really believe they have anything worthwhile to add anyway.

So what is the solution to the apparently insoluble:
  • actively discourage asylum seekers - fast claim process (weeks not years), clear criteria for acceptance, if failed immediate deportation to country of origin, initial decision is final (no protracted appeals). This may be widely seen as inhuman treatment etc etc etc.
  • improve conditions for potential asylum seekers in their home countries - actively engage the prosperous international community in providing support, aid, education, healthcare etc to countries in need. Probably naive, home countries often corrupt, religious intolerance etc
Other ideas with less barriers to likely success would be appreciated. In the absence of this it seems the "illegal migrant" debate is likely to continue - possibly for decades. Depressing!!
 
Economic migrants are net contributors to the UK economy.
That is very true. However, every country only has so much capacity to assimilate and integrate different cultures, languages and perspectives. We also need to determine how much economic migration is required. For instance in a recession, we don’t need additional workers. If we fail to integrate newbies in the the UK culture then you end up with ghettos and racial tensions spilling over to civil unrest
 
But as your a strong socialist you will appreciate that there is but a cigaret paper thickness between the ideology of fascism and socialism. For many, the philosophy is virtually identical.
What do you know of philosophy? Very little on the face of it. The fascists hated the left and persecuted its proponents. They died in the camps too.
So, it’s interesting that you feel that it’s a problem for fascism to rear its head? I keep reminding you Hitler was the head of a socialist party.
This is childish, don't be ridiculous
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...-falsely-claiming-that-nazis-were-socialists/
 
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But as your a strong socialist you will appreciate that there is but a cigaret paper thickness between the ideology of fascism and socialism. For many, the philosophy is virtually identical. So, it’s interesting that you feel that it’s a problem for fascism to rear its head? I keep reminding you Hitler was the head of a socialist party.
I stopped rolling my own cigarettes just over 20 years ago. Lucky for me, as I doubt I'd have the strength to manipulate today's bloated Rizlas!
 
...... For instance in a recession, we don’t need additional workers.
"The decrease in immigration to the UK after Brexit has also had an impact on labour supply. In fact, according to research published in January 2023, it has led to a shortage of around 330,000 workers in Britain."
If we fail to integrate newbies in the the UK culture then you end up with ghettos and racial tensions spilling over to civil unrest
The "unrest" is almost entirely with the right and encouraged from the top via the right wing media. This is how fascism develops, step by small step.
They are going for the immigrants, for the lawyers, against human rights quite overtly with no shame, even attacking the fire service for protecting immigrants and the RNLI for saving them.
They are going for the "woke" in a big way Suella Braverman blames ‘Guardian-reading, tofu-eating wokerati’ for disruptive protests – video
UK is going back to the dark ages.
 
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We do control our borders. Pretending that we don't is part of right wing myth building.
The issue is about how we treat people who cross our borders.
If we controlled our borders we wouldn't have a backlog of 175,000 people waiting to be processed. And reprocessed and reprocessed until they get permission to stay. They wouldn't be here in the first place.
 
Tags? We should take DNA samples and iris photos as well. They are economic migrants, they didn't have to leave war torn France and if they don't like it the choice is theirs - no one forced them into the boats. I know of no one who thinks even one of these people should be allowed into this Country, and I don't think this area is any different to other areas.

Everyone who publicly says differently should automatically have their income tax rate doubled to pay for them.
LOL!
In mega text.

You're the angry man from down the pub and I claim my 50p
 
Your annual income has to be about £41k for you to be a net contributor.
That's well above the national average. Do you mean all those millions of nurses and other staff, and/or more than half the working population of UK, are redundant and we would be better off without them? What an incredibly silly idea.
How many of them are likely to earn that? 43% of social housing in Brent is used to house immigrants - why, if they all earn so much?
Social housing is almost a thing of the past in the UK, and no doubt your figures are meaningless anyway
 
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