If you're thinking of emigrating to Europe and you're not so young think again perhaps

[Jacob]

Taken to an equally logical extreme, socialism is the denial of all personal freedom in pursuit of the greater societal good. This is also best described as slavery!

You are arguing that having any responsibility for your neighbours is paramount to slavery! You are not alone in this - its quite a common argument; that whatever condition people find themselves in is entirely their own fault and not anybody else's responsibility.

Both are grossly unpleasant, and capable of implementation only by imposition:

• in the case of capitalism an unregulated free market allows individuals to pursue personal goals with no regard for the wider community

Which is exactly what they do. The wealth of the British oligarchy itself was built on colonisation and empire building, with ruthless exploitation of our own working class and genocide against indigenous populations. This is the whole reason for socialism in the first place; a reaction against crude capitalism in attempt to build a fairer world. And in the case of environmental issues attempts to remedy the damage done by crude capitalism, which is currently destroying the planet.

• in the case of socialism by authoritarian rule suppressing all individual freedom and initiative, with no regard for a fundamental right of personal opinion, expression or ambition

We are a democracy and nobody advocates "socialism by authoritarian rule" which in any case is a contradiction in terms.

 

[Jake]

Name one successful socialist country!

It depends what you mean by socialism, it's a very loose term. Imagine if "conservatism" covered a spread from trad post-war tory centrist one-nationists to full on fascists (oh, it does these days, well I never). Now name a successful conservative country for me. Fair warning: I am going to shift the goalposts when you reply because for the sake of argument in this thread my own personal meaning is going to be a full-on fascist state and they never last.

edit for clarity

 

[Jacob]

Name one successful socialist country!

Virtually all successful modern states are already socialist to a large extent, with high rates of taxation and public spending - 50% of GDP is typical. There is no alternative.

 

[Windows]

The CIA describes the Nordic nations as socialist states. Feel free to make the case that they are not socialist or that they are not successful (or both), ey_tony. Have at it.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Government spending to GDP for G20 countries - somewhat summarised

Country	Last	Previous	Reference	Unit
France	57	58.4	Dec/23	%
Italy	53.8	54.9	Dec/23	%
Euro Area	49.5	50	Dec/23	%
Germany	48.4	49	Dec/23	%
Spain	45.4	46.4	Dec/23	%
Japan	44.5	47.2	Dec/21	%
United Kingdom	44.5	45.3	Dec/23	%
Netherlands	43.5	43.5	Dec/23	%
South Korea	37.75	38.1	Dec/21	%
United States	34.38	36.16	Dec/23	%
Switzerland	32	31.9	Dec/23	%
Australia	26.8	31.6	Dec/22	%
India	14.92	15.37	Dec/23	%

Some outliers with very low government spending - possibly anomalies for a good reason.

The overall conclusion to be drawn is that ~40-50% seems to be where most settle. Asserting virtually all successful modern states are already socialist to a large extent is nonsense - one may equally assert virtually all are free market capitalist (or fascist as some would have) to a large extent.

The evidence points to a consensus for a balanced social and economic model - not one that is materially skewed to either extreme. Difficult for some to accept.

 

[MikeJhn]

Except that they are already members of the EU.
It's the Shengen free movement system they are joining.
I'm not sure its going to have that great an effect on the European economy.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn4xjj4xde3o

Whoops I miss-read the report, sorry if I mislead anyone.

 

[Jacob]

Government spending to GDP for G20 countries - somewhat summarised

Country	Last	Previous	Reference	Unit
France	57	58.4	Dec/23	%
Italy	53.8	54.9	Dec/23	%
Euro Area	49.5	50	Dec/23	%
Germany	48.4	49	Dec/23	%
Spain	45.4	46.4	Dec/23	%
Japan	44.5	47.2	Dec/21	%
United Kingdom	44.5	45.3	Dec/23	%
Netherlands	43.5	43.5	Dec/23	%
South Korea	37.75	38.1	Dec/21	%
United States	34.38	36.16	Dec/23	%
Switzerland	32	31.9	Dec/23	%
Australia	26.8	31.6	Dec/22	%
India	14.92	15.37	Dec/23	%

Some outliers with very low government spending - possibly anomalies for a good reason.

The overall conclusion to be drawn is that ~40-50% seems to be where most settle. Asserting virtually all successful modern states are already socialist to a large extent is nonsense - one may equally assert virtually all are free market capitalist (or fascist as some would have) to a large extent.

Well no. Non of them are "free-market capitalist" - they are all regulated, taxed, constrained. The very idea is a figment of right-wing imaginations, and attempts to de-regulate and "free up" end in failure.

The evidence points to a consensus for a balanced social and economic model - not one that is materially skewed to either extreme. Difficult for some to accept.

Not accepted because not balanced. We have massive wealth inequalities and the deliberate running down of public services for "ideological" reasons - basically to protect the wealthy from having to pay taxes.
https://www.theguardian.com/society...sterity-that-smashed-britains-public-services
https://equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk/

 

[Jacob]

The CIA describes the Nordic nations as socialist states. Feel free to make the case that they are not socialist or that they are not successful (or both), ey_tony. Have at it.

Trumptards see the the whole of Europe as an evil empire!
https://dailybusinessgroup.co.uk/2024/11/trump-aide-tells-uk-to-choose-us-over-socialist-eu/

 

[ey_tony]

Virtually all successful modern states are already socialist to a large extent, with high rates of taxation and public spending - 50% of GDP is typical. There is no alternative.

Well that would also explain why the UK is drowning in debt and taxes! Socialism clearly doesn't work!
There are no truly socialist countries that aren't oppressive.
Socialism is a fantasy that doesn't work.

 

[ey_tony]

The CIA describes the Nordic nations as socialist states. Feel free to make the case that they are not socialist or that they are not successful (or both), ey_tony. Have at it.

Who cares what the CIA describe nations as? They are not to be trusted on anything. I wouldn't have them confirm the time on a clock.
However it also explains why the far Right is on the rise in Europe! A response to left wing views which have prevailed for decades.

 

[ey_tony]

We have a socialist government in power in the UK, tell us one good thing in the first budget that won't ultimately affect jobs/businesses negatively long term or hurt people with taxation?
Who thinks that our 'socialist' government is doing a good job and explain why their budget will get the economy moving?

 

[RobinBHM]

Give it up, Jacob. We never had "control" - we couldn't even get permission to take the VAT off sanitary towels.

Odd how those pro brexit Tories like Steve Baker voted against ending VAT on tampons

the same Tory Mps that oddly claimed how they were able to do it now they had left the EU

by the way Phil:
A) EU dropped minimum VAt on sanitary products in 2018
B) evidence shows when UK dropped it in 2021, shops never passed on the savings

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ainst-the-amendment-to-scrap-it-a6711606.html

 

[RobinBHM]

We have a socialist government in power in the UK

Tony, we really dont

there is nothing socialist about the Labour government

it is a party who are increasing taxes a bit to give more money to desperately needed services....like shortening the NHS waiting lists.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

by the way Phil:
A) EU dropped minimum VAt on sanitary products in 2018
B) evidence shows when UK dropped it in 2021, shops never passed on the savings

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ainst-the-amendment-to-scrap-it-a6711606.html

Which is neither here nor there. It doesn't make my post any less true.

 

[RobinBHM]

Name one successful socialist country!

appeal to extremes logical fallacy

a useufl point is: lets look social democracies with a fairer wealth distribution:

Sweden
Denmark
Norway
Germany
France

all have far higher living standard for ordinary working people and far better public services than UK and USA

 

[RobinBHM]

Which is neither here nor there. It doesn't make my post any less true.

your point is wrong

if we were still in the EU we could have zero VAt on sanitary products

what you are really saying is you dont understand how the single Market works, to have the benefit of frictionless trade, you have to have common standards, so countries cant make unilateral decisions on aspects which affect trade. But to claim UK had no control as an EU member is simply untrue.........because as a major and founding member the UK had a great deal of leverage. The UK hasnt gained any control leaving EU, its lost it

 

[Jacob]

Tony, we really dont

there is nothing socialist about the Labour government

it is a party who are increasing taxes a bit to give more money to desperately needed services....like shortening the NHS waiting lists.

Starmer says he is (vaguely) https://www.theguardian.com/politic...progressive-who-will-always-put-country-first
Socialists say he isn't https://www.socialistparty.org.uk/a...2024/readers-opinion-starmer-is-no-socialist/
History says Labour is a party of the working class, or "a labour movement"
Their are massive essays and huge books on the topics.
Does it matter what the words mean? They obviously are not easily defined.
What matters is what the people in power actually do and how it affects the quality of everyones lives.
.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

what you are really saying is you dont understand how the single Market works, to have the benefit of frictionless trade, you have to have common standards, so countries cant make unilateral decisions on aspects which affect trade.

So how is it that member states can (within limits) set their own rates of personal tax, business taxes, capital taxes, inheritance taxes, VAT - yet apparently a tampon tax requires the agreement of all member states. Bonkers!

But to claim UK had no control as an EU member is simply untrue.........because as a major and founding member the UK had a great deal of leverage. The UK hasnt gained any control leaving EU, its lost it

The UK was never a founding member of what became the EU which had its foundations in the European Coal and Steel Community established in 1952. The UK had to wait until de Gaulle finally stepped down to become a member in 1973.

I do agree, however, there is little evidence of any materially greater UK control over anything since leaving. We should have been far more assertive whilst we were in the "club" to do things our way and ignore any criticism.

 

[woodieallen]

....... explain why their budget will get the economy moving?

Yup...secomd consecutive month of NEGATIVE growth. Well done, Rachel. Recession anyone ?

 

[RobinBHM]

So how is it that member states can (within limits) set their own rates of personal tax, business taxes, capital taxes, inheritance taxes, VAT - yet apparently a tampon tax requires the agreement of all member states. Bonkers

But the phrase “within limits” also applies to sanitary products, the min rate was 5%

But it’s historic anyway, the EU voted to scrap the minimum in 2016.