If my dad wasnt dead I'd kill him

[RogerS]

You really are a Muppet Jacob. Looking at that Gruniad article...What part of the phrase "£10 million luxury homes" are you having difficulty in understanding?

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[Trainee neophyte]

There are NO massive wealth skewing the market...

The one thing being missed here is the function of debt as money, the creating of money out of thin air to lend into the economy, and the odd fact that debt creates new money, but repayment of debt destroys money. The system requires exponential growth just to stand still. There have to be more, bigger debts tomorrow than today, otherwise the banks implode. This is why we will never see sensible interest rates again, until the system inevitably breaks. I have been waiting patiently for the wheels to fall of since 2008, and here we are pootling along as though nothing has happened, even though zirp means that pensions are all going to fail, and the system can not possibly function, but who cares? Property prices are at insane levels, so we are all Rich! Rich! Rich! Quick! Borrow more money!!!

 

[Jacob]

You really are a Muppet Jacob. Looking at that Gruniad article...What part of the phrase "£10 million luxury homes" are you having difficulty in understanding?

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You really are a Muppet Roger, luxury homes aren't a little enclave separate from the market as a whole. They may be literally, but in economics terms they are just part of the spectrum and what happens with them affects the whole market.

 

[doctor Bob]

Page 5 for name calling ........... slackers.

 

[Jacob]

There are NO massive wealth skewing the market...

The one thing being missed here is the function of debt as money, the creating of money out of thin air to lend into the economy, and the odd fact that debt creates new money, but repayment of debt destroys money. The system requires exponential growth just to stand still. There have to be more, bigger debts tomorrow than today, otherwise the banks implode. This is why we will never see sensible interest rates again, until the system inevitably breaks. I have been waiting patiently for the wheels to fall of since 2008, and here we are pootling along as though nothing has happened, even though zirp means that pensions are all going to fail, and the system can not possibly function, but who cares? Property prices are at insane levels, so we are all Rich! Rich! Rich! Quick! Borrow more money!!!

Latest thinking on interests rates is that ZIRP is a luxury and what we really need is 'demurrage' - a word I only learnt recently - which means negative interest rates - you pay to hold on to money. It's not a novel idea and has been talked about and used in various places at various times. The reason is that continual growth is no longer possible, if we are to counter climate change. It never was viable - it never had an end in view and is the cause of a lot of problems.
It's all in "Doughnut Economics" Kate Raworth, well worth a read. If nothing else it's a primer on economic history - interesting and with surprises around every corner!

 

[RogerS]

You really are a Muppet Jacob. Looking at that Gruniad article...What part of the phrase "£10 million luxury homes" are you having difficulty in understanding?

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You really are a Muppet Roger, luxury homes aren't a little enclave separate from the market as a whole. They may be literally, but in economics terms they are just part of the spectrum and what happens with them affects the whole market.

You really do have no idea on how the upper end of the property market works, do you ?

Anyway...enough of this. I'm off to do something constructive ad leave you to your little dreams.

 

[SBJ]

You really are a Muppet Jacob. Looking at that Gruniad article...What part of the phrase "£10 million luxury homes" are you having difficulty in understanding?

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You really are a Muppet Roger, luxury homes aren't a little enclave separate from the market as a whole. They may be literally, but in economics terms they are just part of the spectrum and what happens with them affects the whole market.

You really do have no idea on how the upper end of the property market works, do you ?

Anyway...enough of this. I'm off to do something constructive ad leave you to your little dreams.

Haha....RogerS, proved wrong, made to look silly, minces out of thread whilst making insults and claiming that other people aren't bright enough to get it!

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[Jacob]

One of the most obvious features of the impact of the luxury market is the pressure to demolish low value housing and re develop. Traditionally often started by running down and under-investing in low cost; hence Grenfell Tower fire as an extreme consequence. Made worse by a council measuring the success of its housing management in terms of asset value, not public service, as was clearly revealed during the enquiry.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Latest thinking on interests rates is that ZIRP is a luxury and what we really need is 'demurrage' - a word I only learnt recently - which means negative interest rates - you pay to hold on to money. It's not a novel idea and has been talked about and used in various places at various times. The reason is that continual growth is no longer possible, if we are to counter climate change. It never was viable - it never had an end in view and is the cause of a lot of problems.
It's all in "Doughnut Economics" Kate Raworth, well worth a read. If nothing else it's a primer on economic history - interesting and with surprises around every corner!

Economics: the dismal science. Interest rates reflect the time preference value of money (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/ti ... terest.asp), and zero interest rates mean that money has no value. What do negative rates say about the value of money? Pay attention to the nice people wanting digital currencies: all part of the scam to steal from you (most money is digital now - only a tiny proportion is folding cash, but when you are no longer able to access cash, you MUST use a bank, with associated costs and Inland revenue visible trail of money).

MMT is the final admission that the wheels have come off, and the central banks have lost control. Negative interest rates the same. At that point, you may wish you had bought some gold instead of government bonds.

 

[Jacob]

MMT is dead in the water. That's what is interesting about Kate Raworth's book - there's a strong movement to completely rewrite economic theory, it having proved so disastrously wrong in so many places at so many times; e.g. 2008 completely unforeseen collapse, or in general terms the obvious fact of homelessness and poverty being an increasing fact of life even the wealthiest parts of the world.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

MMT is dead in the water. That's what is interesting about Kate Raworth's book - there's a strong movement to completely rewrite economic theory, it having proved so disastrously wrong in so many places at so many times; e.g. 2008 completely unforeseen collapse, or in general terms the obvious fact of homelessness and poverty being an increasing fact of life even the wealthiest parts of the world.

There's always a strong movement to completely rewrite economic theory, which never comes to anything. That's because the clever people think central banks exist in order to preside over the economy, and keep us all safe in our beds. They claim that this is their function, but it is pretty clear, after however many hundreds of years, that their function is to purposefully blow bubbles, and then blow them up. People close to the centre, who will know what is coming, make profits both on the way up, and on the way down. "Buy when their is blood in the streets", especially if you got the memo, and are sitting on a pile of cash, having sold at the top.
At some point economists may work this out, and factor financial banditry into their equations, although economists are pretty dim people, so it may take a few hundred more years before they twig.

 

[Jacob]

.....
At some point economists may work this out, and factor financial banditry into their equations, although economists are pretty dim people, so it may take a few hundred more years before they twig.

One of the newest alternative economics books is called "Sabotage" and puts financial banditry centre stage. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/ ... lan-review
It's on my list for when I've finished Kate Raworth's :shock:

 

[RogerS]

......

You really do have no idea on how the upper end of the property market works, do you ?

Anyway...enough of this. I'm off to do something constructive ad leave you to your little dreams.

Haha....RogerS, proved wrong, made to look silly, minces out of thread whilst making insults and claiming that other people aren't bright enough to get it!

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Stop being so childish. As I said before...learn to grow a pair.

 

[Lons]

The soapboxes are out again and it seems after 6 weeks or so of serious would licking there are some short tongues in evidence.
Is this angry thread no 2, 3 or 4? It's certainly political and should be locked. Against the rules!

 

[Trainee neophyte]

The soapboxes are out again and it seems after 6 weeks or so of serious would licking there are some short tongues in evidence.
Is this angry thread no 2, 3 or 4? It's certainly political and should be locked. Against the rules!

I have to say it has been much more relaxing since the last one was binned. Also, I have come to the conclusion that it was always more of a "disagree with Jacob" thread than anything else. Is this one going the same way? Does look that way. Perhaps I will go in search of kittens again.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cats_and_the_Internet

 

[Andy Kev.]

For RogerS and anybody else who may be interested in this idea: I think that what goes on at the top of the market can effect the whole market as follows.

Suppose there is a limited supply of properties costing 10 million plus and under normal circumstances "normally" rich people would buy them. Suddenly people with even more money enter the market and snap up the top end properties, pushing up the prices as their demand exceeds supply. The normally rich and the frustrated element of the super rich must now go down a price level and the inflationary process repeats itself as they snap up the next best thing. In a place like London this probably continues for outside investors until certain geographical limits have been reached. However, the effects will ripple out way beyond that as those indirectly effected look for properties. The final effect is probably the gentrification of poorer neighbourhoods and you end up with a new neighbour who's got a stupid looking beard and who wears silly, rectangular specs and nobody wants that now, do they?

Meanwhile, everybody earning less than 30k pa is enjoying a 50 mile commute from the only property they could afford.

Disclaimer: As I said, I have no specialist knowledge and it would be interesting were someone to comment who does know about property markets.

 

[Tris]

It seems quite simple (to me at any rate), cap all property price rise for the next 10 years. This gives time for salaries to catch up, then peg maximum increases in value to inflation.
If significant improvements are made to the property then an allowance is made based on value of similar properties in that area.
Nobody who lives in their own, only property loses out as, if they move, other properties haven't increased either so your purchasing power hasn't decreased.
Landlords won't lose out as they still have income from their current property.
The only losers are banks and estate agents, I'd call that a win:win situation.
Rant over

 

[Jacob]

The soapboxes are out again and it seems after 6 weeks or so of serious would licking there are some short tongues in evidence.
Is this angry thread no 2, 3 or 4? It's certainly political and should be locked. Against the rules!

There has been no mention of party politics at all in this thread. Maybe that's the one thing which winds certain people up?
Only Roger has lost his rag so far but that's just how he is! 8)

 

[Lons]

Your usual references to Thatcher ( who I was no supporter of either ) and left wing comments regarding taxation and immigration are political references Jacob and this thread will escalate as you well know. I've largely stayed out of it for that reason but there are loads of forums around far more suitable to subjects of this type. We're on a woodworking forum and this subject is better discussed elsewhere, there are enough disagreements already e.g. sharpening, Grr..ripper push blocks etc.

 

[Jacob]

...... left wing comments regarding taxation and immigration are political references

We all seem to agree about the need for govt intervention and no I didn't say anything at all about immigration.
Ultimately everything is political one way or another. Our forum subject itself is a major political item, what with de-forestation, climate change etc etc.
PS just looked up the meaning of the word "politics" which in the original greek meant "affairs of the cities". In ancient times maybe affairs of the country took care of themselves, but definitely not the case nowadays!