I just heard the news from Wales...

[RogerP]

.........Sorry it's gone on a bit and I expect I'll be shot down on a few points, but that's free speech.

At last a reasoned post amongst a sea of the usual kill 'em knee jerk reactions.

What does it say in the bible? 'an eye for an eye'

What does bronze-age Jewish law have to do with us?

 

[brianhabby]

Whatever side of the fence we sit on regarding the death penalty, one thing is for certain - it's not going to be re-introduced anytime soon.

However, I see no reason why life should not mean life (and not a life of luxury either). It's a pity that even this doesn't seem possible - more like just a few years.

Back on topic...

If you want to show your support for little April's family then you can do so at the following Facebook page:

Help Find Missing 5year Old April Jones

regards

Brian

 

[Louise-Paisley]

I think prevention would be more likely if we got back to a point where there were communities where people watched out for each other and respect was shown.

We instead have a society where people do not get involved, as long as its not me I don't care. In time gone past everyone knew their neighbours and their children, if a child was out and putting themselves in danger they would be escorted home or parents informed right away, nowadays in many places people would quite happily walk past a 2 or 3 year old playing in the street unsupervised without a second thought.

Death penalty or not, these types of predatory crimes against the vulnerable members of society indicate to me that the perpetrator has no place in that society, whatever the method chosen they have by their actions indicated that they are not fit to walk among us and they should one way or another be permanently removed from society for the rest of their lives without any chance of parole or early release.

To do otherwise is saying to the victims family that their lost child's life was only worth, 12, 20, 30.. years of someone else's life and I am sure if it were me that lost a loved one that would be a life sentence for me on top of the one already inflicted.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I think prevention would be more likely if we got back to a point where there were communities where people watched out for each other and respect was shown.

We instead have a society where people do not get involved, as long as its not me I don't care. In time gone past everyone knew their neighbours and their children, if a child was out and putting themselves in danger they would be escorted home or parents informed right away, nowadays in many places people would quite happily walk past a 2 or 3 year old playing in the street unsupervised without a second thought.

Death penalty or not, these types of predatory crimes against the vulnerable members of society indicate to me that the perpetrator has no place in that society, whatever the method chosen they have by their actions indicated that they are not fit to walk among us and they should one way or another be permanently removed from society for the rest of their lives without any chance of parole or early release.

To do otherwise is saying to the victims family that their lost child's life was only worth, 12, 20, 30.. years of someone else's life and I am sure if it were me that lost a loved one that would be a life sentence for me on top of the one already inflicted.

I think there's some truth in what you say about community breakdown, but it was heartening to see so many local people turn out to search for the little girl; I can understand the Police concern about the possibility of evidence being inadvertently degraded by those with more enthusiasm than training, but nonetheless the response shows that community spirit is still there when the chips are down.

As for capital punishment/gaol terms, when hanging was abolished, the quid pro quo was that for previously capital crimes, life would mean life. Over the years, that has become degraded for all sorts of reasons. I'm not in favour of a return to capital punishment, because you can't make ammends if you make a mistake (and they do still happen), but there are some crimes so vile that society deserves to be protected from their perpetrators for the rest of their natural - life should mean life in these cases.

(PS - Let's not prejudge this case. There's a lot that's not yet known - for all we know, the man arrested may be completely innocent, totally guilty, an accessory after the fact or other. I have very deep sympathy for the missing girl and her family, though.)

 

[Louise-Paisley]

Unfortunately after the event is shutting the barn door after the horse bolted.

Of course it is great to see people coming out to help, but it would be better to see that community spirit before the event - not that I am saying the community in this case was such that they wouldn't question a child being taken as I don't watch tv so have not seen it first hand and only have threads such as this to inform me of what happened.

There are a number of 'oldies' that live near me and they always stop to chat, telling stories of the old days when their used to be a close knit community here which was destroyed by the local shops and gathering places disappearing, even so I find that there is more interaction with people here than where I hail from in England but its clear even here it is a long way from what it used to be - not a change for the better IMO

 

[Mike.C]

As long as we are in the European Union unless the 47 states change the law there will never be a death penalty. So the only real punishment for certain sorts of horrendous crimes such as this is a life time tariff. Life means life they should never see the light of day again, and there should be NO PROTECTION WINGS/CELLS. They get sentenced and take there chances in with the general population.

It may not stop all these crimes, but it would be a start, because lets face it most of these scum are cowards.

Cheers

Mike

 

[mailee]

I think Louise is spot on with her observations. Society has been slowly eroded over time and there seems to be far too many 'do gooders' who come down on the side of the offenders. I remember in my youth getting a clout around the ear from a policeman for sitting on my bicycle on the foot path! When I mentioned it to my Dad he told me it served me right they are for walking on. That is when the police were respected.

 

[DIY Stew]

I think Louise is spot on with her observations. Society has been slowly eroded over time and there seems to be far too many 'do gooders' who come down on the side of the offenders. I remember in my youth getting a clout around the ear from a policeman for sitting on my bicycle on the foot path! When I mentioned it to my Dad he told me it served me right they are for walking on. That is when the police were respected.

I felt the back of the local bobbys hand for riding two on my bike on the road, when I got home I told my dad who promptly gave me another clout for being so stupid, it did me no harm, I have never been in trouble with the police since, if I had been and my dad was still alive I would not have told him because his slap was a lot harder the bobbys!

By the way I agree with a lot Louise said too.

Stew

 

[Lons]

As long as we are in the European Union unless the 47 states change the law there will never be a death penalty. So the only real punishment for certain sorts of horrendous crimes such as this is a life time tariff. Life means life they should never see the light of day again, and there should be NO PROTECTION WINGS/CELLS. They get sentenced and take there chances in with the general population.
It may not stop all these crimes, but it would be a start, because lets face it most of these scum are cowards. Cheers Mike

Spot on iMO.

This guy, if found guilty which would appear to be likely now charged will either be declared mentally ill (and therefore protected) or guilty and imprisoned. If the crime was sexually motivated which would also seem the most likely reason then it is possible he would be incarserated in a prison with a VP wing (vulnerable prisoner) or in isolation and therefore protected from other (non paedophile) inmates who do not view child abusers kindly.
Why should he be? His victim and her relatives are not protected.

Regarding cost - detailed academic research in countries where the death penalty is used, found the cost is far higher than even life, (and I mean life) sentences - due to many reasons, but including extremely high trial costs, (evidence, examinations, cross-examinations, expert witnesses), appeals, counter-appeals, .... the list goes on.

Questionable and still just opinions. Countries differ greatly in how the % of costs are apportioned. The USA being a classic example of runaway legal fees being a higher % of overall costs.
Most of the examples quoted are common whether the sentence is life imprisonment or death. In the case of the latter the costs revert to nil once death has occurred (unless false sentence of course) whilst a sentence of say 25 years incurs considerable costs during that time followed by many years of additional expense on release. Whilst in prison, they are fed, medicated and housed all at the expense of the taxpayer and they regularly appeal using legal aid. They even receive cash "compensation" for loss of those benefits if released early and that takes no account of the number of criminals who re-offend once released then to go through the whole process again These additional (avoidable) crimes cost even more to all of us in increased insurance premiums, policing costs and victim misery.

I think Louise is spot on with her observations. Society has been slowly eroded over time and there seems to be far too many 'do gooders' who come down on the side of the offenders.

ME TOO =D> =D>

I have a number of friends in the force, a couple who are quite senior and in general the police become very disallusioned when as happens regulary, their endeavours in bringing criminals to justice are seriously undermined by far too lenient judges who hand out micky mouse sentencing which are then further erroded in real terms.

Those who have never seen the inside of a prison are really drawing conclusions from poor information. They are not luxurious places except compared to living conditions of the very poor but neither are they hard punishment. OK they are locked up for many hours at a time but otherwise receive better food, care, comfort and more access to services than a sizeable percentage of the population and to many it is not a deterent whatsoever. Death might just be, as would the certainty that if life, they knew that they would die in prison.
If they were forced to serve full and long military syle sentence of early rise, prison uniforms, cut hair, hard labour and NO privileges then perhaps it would work. Prisoners very quickly lear how to work the system and manipulate these do gooders many of whom are ill informed, self opinionated activists. I'm sure all of us can identify with a few in normal life :wink:

Bob

 

[Louise-Paisley]

I had two police officers at my house last year, there was an incident where one of the neighbours had been threatened and had some pretty nasty homophobic abuse and threats. I witnessed the tail end of it and went down to help so the police came to get statements etc..

They both said that the job is now just a paper pushing exercise, they said the job is all about taking statements and creating a paper trail which is primarily to cover them if or when something goes wrong rather than to solve a crime. Coupled with the fact that the majority of the known problem people know how to work the system and time after time they just walk away stock free after the police have spent hours and hours trying to prosecute they both said the job is not what it used to be.

I have worked in a prison and although it is not living in luxury it is a better life than many people on the outside lead.. 4 meals a day, some money for tobacco and a few luxuries, a clean bed to sleep in and of course the big one is they have nothing to worry about, no thinking about where the money to pay the electricity, gas, rent etc is coming from, no worry about if they will find work or keep a job, it is a relatively stress free life banged up with plenty of others with a common interest - crime.

It is hardly a deterrent, especially not after the first visit. While complete denial of any human rights is probably a step too far, there is far too many liberal do gooders campaigning to improve their lot when the truth of the matter is they already have far more than they really deserve. The often used argument is that they are not there to be punished, they are there to be excluded from society and that exclusion is the 'punishment' but I think the only way to make any difference is, like with children, teaching them that their actions have consequences.

 

[Jacob]

If you lined up all the various punishments/deterrents, however gory, and put them in place, it's unlikely that they would have deterred our man in Wales. He assumed he would get away with it and in any case was off his head - if he did it.

Even if he didn't do it as prime suspect he would have been lynched, hung drawn and quartered etc. etc. No doubt this would have given a lot of satisfaction to the mob (and members of UKWS :roll: ) but it would have left the real culprit free - and free to do it again.

 

[RogerS]

If you lined up all the various punishments/deterrents, however gory, and put them in place, it's unlikely that they would have deterred our man in Wales. He assumed he would get away with it and in any case was off his head - if he did it.

Even if he didn't do it as prime suspect he would have been lynched, hung drawn and quartered etc. etc. No doubt this would have given a lot of satisfaction to the mob (and members of UKWS :roll: ) but it would have left the real culprit free - and free to do it again.

That is the scary thing....I'm just wondering if perhaps it isn't this guy. Friend of the family, the child regularly used to go in the vehicle, so lots of forensics there...too easy to pin the blame. Just maybe the real abductor is still out there?

 

[RogerS]

....

I see the Police have been given another 24 hours to question this man - it does seem to be a struggle for them - if he is guilty he should know where she (or her body) is and if so he is just rubbing salt into the wound by not disclosing the location. - or does he have an accomplice? Won't be the first time
.....

That's the thing. If he was part of a paedophile ring then by keeping quiet, he gives the other members time to delete evidence of their involvement. I did say 'IF HE WAS PART'.

 

[RogerS]

Unfortunately after the event is shutting the barn door after the horse bolted.

Of course it is great to see people coming out to help, but it would be better to see that community spirit before the event - not that I am saying the community in this case was such that they wouldn't question a child being taken as I don't watch tv so have not seen it first hand and only have threads such as this to inform me of what happened.

There are a number of 'oldies' that live near me and they always stop to chat, telling stories of the old days when their used to be a close knit community here which was destroyed by the local shops and gathering places disappearing, even so I find that there is more interaction with people here than where I hail from in England but its clear even here it is a long way from what it used to be - not a change for the better IMO

But that's the thing. We, and by that I mean those of us 50+ or so, have abrogated our responsibilities. We never (or very few of us) took it upon ourselves to stand up for respect. To tell the yob on the bus to quieten down. And it's not a case of being scared about knives etc. I'm talking about 10-15 years ago which seems to me about when things started to go downhill. I was never aware of the potential of a kid being tooled-up back then. But we have to share the responsibility.

Drugs possibly have a part to play but I don't think any more now then than. PPP (piss poor parenting) does have a lot to answer for where we are today IMO.

I'd have banned all those nasty video games for starters. Also all TV soaps where confrontation and raised voices depicts the only way of behaving.

.....
It is hardly a deterrent, especially not after the first visit. While complete denial of any human rights is probably a step too far, there is far too many liberal do gooders campaigning to improve their lot when the truth of the matter is they already have far more than they really deserve. The often used argument is that they are not there to be punished, they are there to be excluded from society and that exclusion is the 'punishment' but I think the only way to make any difference is, like with children, teaching them that their actions have consequences.

Spot on. We also need to get rid of the TPA's.....Third Party Apologists.

 

[riclepp]

I think Louise is spot on with her observations. Society has been slowly eroded over time and there seems to be far too many 'do gooders' who come down on the side of the offenders. I remember in my youth getting a clout around the ear from a policeman for sitting on my bicycle on the foot path! When I mentioned it to my Dad he told me it served me right they are for walking on. That is when the police were respected.

Me too +1 :shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[Lons]

Even if he didn't do it as prime suspect he would have been lynched, hung drawn and quartered etc. etc. No doubt this would have given a lot of satisfaction to the mob (and members of UKWS :roll: ) but it would have left the real culprit free - and free to do it again.

EH :roll: That's just bullsh*t.

Wouldn't happen as you well know because the process between sentencing and death is necessarily long and drawn out precicely to allow for appeals and new evidence to surface, (as is the process available to long prison sentencing). This unquestionably reduces the possibility of an innocent person being executed. (Not foolproof as very few things are of course).

The general public aren't stupid enough to believe that many of those (very few people) released from prison as wrongly convicted are actually innocent. When the cases are scrutinised, there are many instances where the conviction has been reversed on a technicality cleverly exploited by unscrupulous solicitors.

It's crazy IMO that when a person is charged of commiting a serious offence that previous criminal history is usually not allowed to be considered. Habitual criminals are exactly that - REPEAT OFFENDERS.
All that happens in prison is that they form new paedophile rings and learn even more ways of hiding their horrible activities then when released they are placed in communities without the residents knowledge and they are protected. Many disappear, are lost track of and then free to carry on doing what they do.

If you lined up all the various punishments/deterrents, however gory, and put them in place, it's unlikely that they would have deterred our man in Wales. He assumed he would get away with it and in any case was off his head - if he did it.

OK
If neither are deterrents (and I don't dissagree on that in cases such as this poor little girl) then once proven beyond doubt that the perpetrator is guilty then rid the world of this horrific person and remove any possibility of him harming anyone else is what I say!

If people spent a little time with some of these paedophiles (oops - vulnerable prisoners) they might just come to realise that it is virtually impossible to change their attitude and practices. Sexual preference is a powerful force, unfortunately the victims are ALWAYS children.

BTW - before any snide remarks appear, I've never spent time in prison niether have I or any of my family been directly involved with any criminals - apart from on a professional basis which is where my knowledge was gained.

Bob

 

[Jelly]

I recently read about a centre in the states where people convicted of crimes against children and vulnerable adults are remanded in secure psychiatric care until such time as they are deemed to be no longer a risk to society; in practice it means many of them will remain there for the rest of their lives.

To me, that seems more reasonable and appropriate than a fixed term sentance... After all these people are not wilful criminals, so much as not right in the head.

As for all those advocating the death penalty, I suggest you consider the following from Nietzches: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you"