I have won a Morticer!

[ByronBlack]

Yesterday I managed to win a morticer via the 'bay. It is the Fox 5/8" model.

Rutlands Link

I got it for the bargain price of £70 and will hopefully be picking the machine up on the weekend.

I'm unsure if it comes with chisels and bits, so in lieu of any being supplied, what are the things to look for in a good mortice chisel? I've got a good idea on how to sharpen them - thanks to the excellent info from Scrit. One question that immediatly comes to mind: Are all chisels the same length?

The morticer that I have won has 8 1/2" between the base and the motor, I need to mortice 3" stock - so i'm hoping that the average mortice chisel is no longer than 5".

And finally. Is an XY vice a worthwhile addition, or can one get by without?

 

[Scrit]

what are the things to look for in a good mortice chisel?

Buy only British (Clico/old Ridgway) or Japanese sets. The Taiwanese stuff is very variable and the Chinese stuff is mainly rubbish. But then I'm biased :roll: I find that the Japanese sets cut quicker and clog less than the British ones, but both retain an edge longer than the Chiwanese stuff. Someone is bound to disagree with me, in which case :lol: to you

And no, all chisels aren't the same length. Clico do a long series for industrial machines and a short series for Multico and similar lightweight mortisers. The bushings to hold the chisels also come in different sizes - my machine came with two, 13/16in and 1-3/16in but there are other sizes around, such as 5/8in and 3/4in on the Chinese stuff (getting one made is a tenner at a local engineering shop - well it is for me).

And finally. Is an XY vice a worthwhile addition, or can one get by without?

Probably more trouble than it's worth. They are metalworking devices and won't have any way to hold a backer board at the bottom (reduces break-out on through mortises). They also don't have the necessary end stops on the two axes - having the movements is only part of the story - it's that in conjunction with the stop system which makes the full package so to speak. Youd probably struggle to accommodate it in front of the columns in any case

Scrit

 

[Slim]

Well done Byron. Thats a bargain! I have the same model and it has served me well. I have never felt I have been missing out by not having an XY vice, but I suspect it is one of those things that once you have tried one you wouldn't do without. The chisels increase in length as they increase in width with the square section of the 1/2" chisel being just over 3" long.

HTH

 

[ByronBlack]

Scrit/Simon - thanks fella's! I appreciate the information.

Simon - what are the chisels that come bundled with the machine like? Would they be good enough to get me by until I get something like Scrit recommended? Do you have tips/info that might be useful to me ahead of time in regards to setting up the machine? I've done a fair bit of reading over the last week, so i've got a vague idea of what to do, but wondered if there was anythig specific with this model?

Scrit - the K1 I was looking at was discounted as an option, got quite a vaque/brusque response from the seller, hence my bidding for this smaller one; although interestingly it has the same power motor 3/4 HP so i'm hoping it will be fine for upcoming projects. I wont be using this on the workbench project.

 

[OLD]

I have this m/c also its good and is complete with chisels. tighten the chuck up well and set the clearance properly and it should serve you well, i did have to fix ply + shims (paper) to the fence to make it straight. For extra depth cut from both sides and set chisel to discharge into the void you have just cut to stop clogging.
I find a trend depth gauge good to set the chisel to the fence

 

[Slim]

Simon - what are the chisels that come bundled with the machine like? Would they be good enough to get me by until I get something like Scrit recommended? Do you have tips/info that might be useful to me ahead of time in regards to setting up the machine? I've done a fair bit of reading over the last week, so i've got a vague idea of what to do, but wondered if there was anythig specific with this model?

I have found the chisels are fine. I have cut mortices in all sorts of species, and never really had a problem. They need a sharpen every now and then, but apart from that I think they are great. They will certainly get you by. I was going to upgrade my chisels, but nearly choked when I saw the price of the better quality ones.

As for set up, there is nothing out of the ordinary requierd to set up the machine. Just make sure the chisel is square to the fence and set the slot in the chisel so that the waste comes out into the part of the mortice already cut.

I have heard that filing the inside corners of the tip of the chisel square can drasticly improve the performance. The inside is normally round and can cause extra resistance. Filing the corners square reduces the amount of metal being forced through the wood thus making it easier to plunge. I think though that this has to be done very accurately so that the same amount of metal is removed on all four corners.

 

[matt]

Yesterday I managed to win a morticer via the 'bay. It is the Fox 5/8" model.

OK, I see how you work now. Distract me with PDF's of jigs to use with a router while you sneak on to eBay and snaffle a bargain... :wink:

Well done. I've not bid on anything yet. I watch as they breeze past my budget :roll: .

 

[ByronBlack]

Yesterday I managed to win a morticer via the 'bay. It is the Fox 5/8" model.

OK, I see how you work now. Distract me with PDF's of jigs to use with a router while you sneak on to eBay and snaffle a bargain... :wink:

Well done. I've not bid on anything yet. I watch as they breeze past my budget :roll: .

Mwuhahahah my evil plan worked! Like taking candy from a baby!

To be fair, I was pretty much set on the jig until I saw that this one didn't change price at all right up till the last minute when I put my bid in, for the first in months, I wasn't pipped at the last second.

I've also noticed, that sometimes people spell it "mortiser" as well as "morticer" so worth searching on both those terms.

Old/simon - thanks for the details on the machine, i'm due to go pick it up in an hour (or longer thanks to some muppet causing the A127 to be closed .. grrr).

 

[Scrit]

I have heard that filing the inside corners of the tip of the chisel square can drasticly improve the performance. The inside is normally round and can cause extra resistance. Filing the corners square reduces the amount of metal being forced through the wood thus making it easier to plunge. I think though that this has to be done very accurately so that the same amount of metal is removed on all four corners.

Yes indeedy! I don't know if anyone has used these:

They are Veritas 77J81.22 cone sharpeners ($22.50 in the US of A) which take the place of the large taper stones or conventional taper reamers traditionally used for sharpening square chisels:

With the conventional reamers you need to have the right size reamer and nose piece for each of your chisels - if you have chisels from 1/4in to 1in like I do that means three sets, or not much short of £300 for the Clico jobbies! The Lea Valley items seem to be a very low cost of achieving the same result, albeit nowhere near as durable. I think that for hobby use they'd be more than good enough.

The main thing is NOT to stone the outside of the chisels as that will eventually result in the darned things sticking in the cut. The other thing is to make sure that all four points are identical. It should be possible to stand a properly sharpened chisel on it's points on a level kitchen counter top.

The auger bits are sharpened in the same way as hand auger bits, that is with a tapered file and/or slip and only on the inside. I use a Nicholson 7in taper auger bit file for this:

Although Lie-Noelsen do them as well these days.

Byron

When you get a new auger set the shaft of the bit is generally way too long. They have to be shortened to fit the machine. You need to file a groove with a half-round or barrett file and snap the end off - just make sure you don't cut off too much.

Scrit

 

[ByronBlack]

Scrit - thanks for linking to the uber-cones, i'll add them to my growing shopping list or should that be SWMBO list of my birthday desires?

Well, I have the machine sitting happily in the workshop. The fella was a nice chap (a Joiner by trade, he upgraded to a 1" Jet machine). The machine is in excellent condition - all chisels came with it along with the original paperwork and destruction manual. Even all the handled hex-keys and chuck key remained in place!

I've run some test cuts in some sapele and beech (only hardwoods I have as scrap) and some crappy pine - I'm very impressed already and i've barely made any attempt to set it up perfectly.

There are a couple of things though - these are just because I'm new to all this malarky. Firstly, the chisel gets very very hot very quickly is this normal? (I'm assuming a blunt chisel here?)

Also, when the motor is on, the auger bit seems to strike the inside of the chisel creating a high-rev clacky noise - not particularly loud though, but it's clearly touching the inside of the chisel as it spins - is this normal?

Finally: technique. In the beech I tested on (only piece I had that was more than an inch thick) I made a couple of small plunges across the width of the soon-to-be mortice, and then went back and followed up with deeper plunges, it took about three rows of plunging to get to the final depth (2.5") am I being over-cautious and am I right to do it this way, or is there a preferred way of cutting a long/deep mortice?

I'm generally impressed with the finish, some people on another forum that I was reading were saying that all a morticer is good for is giving 2 square edges and then a ropey hole in between - this luckily is something that I don't share as in my opinion the finish is rather good.

 

[Scrit]

Firstly, the chisel gets very very hot very quickly is this normal? (I'm assuming a blunt chisel here?)

Possibly. Possibly the slots in the chisel aren't set to eject into the just cut mortise (if you don't do that then the chisel gets jam full with waste). Possibly the auger bit is rubbing against the chisel (see below)

Also, when the motor is on, the auger bit seems to strike the inside of the chisel creating a high-rev clacky noise - not particularly loud though, but it's clearly touching the inside of the chisel as it spins - is this normal?

When installing the chisel set a coin (2p piece) as a spacer between the top of the chisel (at the shoulder) and the bushing. This will purposely set the chisel 1.5mm or so too low. Insert and tighten the auger. Loosen the chisel, remove the coin and reseat the chisel shoulder against the bushing. That way you get the right clearance and the auger doesn't run against the chisel causing noise and overheating.......

I made a couple of small plunges across the width of the soon-to-be mortice, and then went back and followed up with deeper plunges, it took about three rows of plunging to get to the final depth (2.5") am I being over-cautious and am I right to do it this way, or is there a preferred way of cutting a long/deep mortice?

Sounds OK to me - you couldn't plunge a 1/2in chisel in 3in straight off - the exhaust slots would clog for a start.

...some people on another forum that I was reading were saying that all a morticer is good for is giving 2 square edges and then a ropey hole in between - this luckily is something that I don't share as in my opinion the finish is rather good.

It's caused by the auger bit necessarily being slightly larger than the chisel - this is commercially acceptable. It's just that cheaper chisels are generally worse in that respect than old Ridgway (not the current Chinese rubbish), Clico, Multico and the Japanese chisels as their tolerances are all over the place

Scrit

 

[ByronBlack]

Scrit - as always, some excellent information. Thanks again mate. I'll have a go with re-setting the chisel tomorrow.

 

[Scrit]

Byron

It could just be that the auger is bent, too...... :roll:

Scrit

 

[ByronBlack]

Byron

It could just be that the auger is bent, too...... :roll:

Scrit

Bent!! Did you say bent!! How very dare you!

Could be a possibility I suppose (the auger bit that is)

 

[Anonymous]

Does have a clamp or holding in device, and a sliding table (sideways as well as to and fro adjustment)? Can't see them in the picture. If not then I'd put it back on Ebay and look for an upgrade.
Re deep mortices - once you have opened up about 1 and half widths of the chisel in a series of smaller plunges, you can do it full depth. I think it is marginally quicker to take out almost the full depth in one, then turn over to take out the remainder, rather than doing half and half.

cheers
Jacob

 

[matt]

Does have a clamp or holding in device, and a sliding table (sideways as well as to and fro adjustment)? Can't see them in the picture. If not then I'd put it back on Ebay and look for an upgrade.

Seems to me that you can choose to spend your money in one of two directions when it comes to buying a mortiser on a budget - anything up to £150:

1. Clamp base with X, Y axis slidability, small motor, debatable accuracy.
2. Big motor but no fancy base, perhaps more accurate through just using fence and eye.

If you want both, you're generally in to spending more money. I noticed the Fox has 3/4 HP motor but no "clamp/X&Y" - the way I seem to be going in my search for a budget mortiser. For £70 I'd stick with it - seems like a bargain.

[EDIT]In fact, I've just been taking a closer look on Rutland's site, reading the reviews etc, and I think you should sell it - to me ...[/EDIT] :twisted:

 

[Scrit]

Hi Matt

I think you'll find a clear division between the trades types and the non-trades types here. To us tradesmen the need to have repeatability, accuracy and save time is paramount - for example with a X-Y movement and stops you only need to mark up one rail and one stile on a frame and panel door and set the stops a couple of times to cut all the mortices identically. Without it all the mortises have to be set-out by hand as you'd do for hand mortising and the machine becomes in effect a powered mortise chisel with the same accuracy/repeatability issues. Comparing a full-spec mortiser and a cut-down one is like comparing chalk with cheese.

Scrit

 

[matt]

I don't disagree, however, there seems to be attempts at offering trade type specs on budget machines at the expense of motor size, accuracy, and build quality. Chalk pretending to be cheese.

I was looking at the Charnwood with sliding base and, having read the reviews (the ones linked from their site rather ironically!), I was put off by references to plastic depth stops that don't work and a fence that flexes.

Byron's Fox seems like quite an honest machine (especially at £70).

 

[Anonymous]

Yes OK for £70 its a deal, stick with it.
For me the main reason for the sliding table isn't accuracy it's speed. I can quickly throw the piece approximately into the middle of the table, clamp it quickly with a flick on a heavy clamp wheel, and then mortice - moving along with the table wheel.
I always mark everything up anyway, just as for hand work. It's an extension of the rod system - guarantees accuracy and puts the whole project on auto pilot once marking up is finished. If I'm doing 15 sash windows with 400 or so components, having to adjust stops and keep checking back on where I'm at, would be extremely tedious and doomed to go wrong. A tedious whole day of meticulous marking up is a better alternative I've found, and every bit of every piece a can be identified at a glance from the marks.

cheers
Jacob

 

[Scrit]

A tedious whole day of meticulous marking up is a better alternative I've found, and every bit of every piece a can be identified at a glance from the marks.

Different strokes, etc. I'm currently using a horizontal Parveau mortiser where you can't see the cut point, so marking it all out becomes pointless

Scrit