HSE - Very, Very Nice Man & this week's Can of Worms!

[ondablade]

Thanks very much for that Andy, lots in there to think about. You'll have noticed I'm a bit sceptical of the prevailing wisdom on the topic. I guess I struggle with the idea that so many more people use them in the US than ever could here - in that if there was a significant problem we'd surely have heard of it by now.

While there's a lot of macho stuff that gets talked over there our trans-Atlantic brethren are pretty quick to head for the courts or the media if something goes wrong. They don't seem notably keener than the rest of us to stick their hands in moving cutters either. Nor (despite all the noises about dodgy US practices) do too many seem to be missing fingers and the like.

On configuration of equipment to use slotting cutters. Hammer offer the option to run their carbide tipped set, and seem well able to brake the weight, but this is high end hobby/diy terrritory. They have dowel pins to stop the cutter coming loose though - which they presumably don't do for fun. So maybe the braking time requirement (which they may not have in the US?) is an issue for lower cost kit makers.

There may be more technical and regulatory considerations that make Europe different as well, but I'd have to say that my instinct is to suspect that a big part of the story is the prevailing negative perception of dado cutters creates its own reality bubble though. The 'give a dog a bad name' principle.

I've not seen the sentiment backed with historical data from anywhere though. Or maybe there is data, but it's not referenced?

If the negative feeling applies in the regulatory people as well, then the chances are that if there's an accident you might well stand to be treated less sympathetically in any investigation...

 

[NetBlindPaul]

ondablade,
The EU legislation is very different to the US, not only in detail but in concept.

You are free to do "anything" you like even in the UK, however, IF "something" goes "wrong" then you are in the frame to prove that what you did met the requirements of the relevant H&S legislation as far as reasonably practicable.
This will only ever be defined in "your" situaiton when "your" case comes to court after the fact...

HTH.

There is more and it can be debated / discussed, however I will not get drawn into a *** for tat orgument, or a betterment situation.

 

[Chataigner]

Lord save us, all we want to do is make things, but we are faced with a bunch of people paid by us (from taxation) who cant tell us what is good, but can prosecute us if it isnt good. Has the world gone mad or is just me?

No wonder China can compete.

 

[Steve Maskery]

The Can of Worms bit was meant light-heartedly - I should have known better!
At least no-one has fallen out yet. Glad we can keep it that way.

FWIW, my viewpoint - just because something is possible and allowed doesn't necessarily mean it's the most sensible thing to do.

I've filmed a segment today showing a router jig for cutting housings (dadoes if you speak funny English). It was just so much easier than trying to do the job on a TS with a (quite good quality) stacked dado set.

I'm desperately trying to get this film finished before the bailiffs arrive. Does anyone have an unlimited supply of cardboard boxes and an aircraft hangar they are not currently using?



S

 

[NetBlindPaul]

No Steve,
I don't follow with the issues wrt the can of worms bit?
I don't see any reason to fall out.
My last post sums the situation up, do what you like until it goes wrong then be prepared to justify your actions & argue your case.
This would only apply in a workplace anyway as far as HSE or LA EH are concerned.
In a DIY situation, the only "higher power" you may need to answer to is SWMBO & your insurers.

There are too many things blamed on H&S which are simply not, or are blamed due to lack of understanding of the fundamentals of the situation.

 

[ondablade]

I'd have to say that Chataigner's point says precisely what I was thinking too - but avoided saying directly for fear of offending somebody. There really needs to be a clear position statement on the use of dado cutters.

It's what I was getting at in the earlier posts - especially when I muttered about the authorities in the event of an accident setting out to 'find a witch to burn'. I hate to be a cynic, but hard experience tends to suggest that the laying of an open ended responsibility for safe use of anything on the end user with the regulator reserving the right to disagree after the fact of an accident is surely far too great a temptation for the average job justifier to resist....

 

[NetBlindPaul]

ondablade,
The way current legislation is going there will not be a definitive statement as HSE are no longer in a position to do this.
The law has changed to put the onus on the end user.
It's an EU thing.
Many regs have and are changing in this way.
I'm not saying I like it either, but that is the way it is going to be!
It only affects business anyway, not the DIY'er.

 

[ondablade]

Thanks Paul, and please pardon the following - if only because it's a bit philosophical in nature.

I guess it's fairly clear why they went down the self assessment road - in that to create, continuously update and enforce a body of finite rules covering all kinds of potentially risky equipment would be an impracticably huge undertaking. Requiring an enormous bureaucracy.

Not to mention that finite (black and white) rules bring their own problems - we're all familiar with how it's often possible to drive a coach and four through them.

Either way though the regulatory authority should surely be able to up front unequivocally state what is and what isn't acceptable in a given situation - it shouldn't be a case of their needing to figure it out after the fact.

Competence and integrity (right values) end up as a central issue whether the problem is approached from either way. The use of creative means to avoid rules by those subject to them normally amounts to an abuse of values by one side of the house (e.g. tax avoidance), but unfortunately the self assessment system (while probably more practical) demands strong values from the regulatory side - which unfortunately (I think) is equally likely to be driven into (knowingly or unknowingly) abuse by the pressures and demands of their own situation.

Which I suspect is why most of us are pretty wary of the system, and why the prospect of being put in a self assessment situation is so unappealing .

The hard fact is surely that no system of safety rules can prevent all accidents - even if by some magic it has ended up not being flawed. (which actually isn't possible) Yet there's an apparent reluctance to accept this by all sides when it suits them. (businesses, employees and regulators) It's actually a bit scary the way accident investigations can seem to lose sight of this - never mind how lacking in expertise some of the authorities can actually be.

The limited willingness of authority to allow people to take responsibility for themselves confuses the position too - I've previously argued in another thread that keeping people responsible for their own safety must be an important element in any effective safety strategy - if only to maintain informed engagement, keep people empowered and reduce abuses.

Accidents do happen, and despite the very best of methods and intentions on all sides always will. Yet when it suits the system seems often to behave as though this isn't a reality. (even at the level of something as supposedly ultra cautious and competent as the nuclear industry - look at the blithe assurances that had become the norm before Fukushima proved it all to be built on hubris/self interest)

One result tends to be the previously mentioned tendency for accident investigations to seek to find who was to blame - there's for selfish reasons little willingness to admit the possibility of an accident (a genuine mistake so to speak) despite all doing their best to avoid it. i.e. if the system is perfect, then de facto the only way an accident could have happened is if somebody screwed up.

This isn't to take a tilt at anybody. The point is more that human/language limitations mean that watertight systems of rules are inevitably an impossibility - from which ever perspective you approach a given issue.

Even if the rules are 100%, and the parties somehow 100% competent and trustworthy - any shortfall in the motivation/attention of those working must result in errors. Yet in our hubris we (from whichever side) persist in behaving as though perfection is the norm.

I'd argue that it's out of our attempts to square this particular (un-squareable) circle that much of the injustice and ineffectiveness (e.g. the fog of uncertainty that surrounds dado cutters) of rule based systems flows....

 

[Benchwayze]

ondablade,
The way current legislation is going there will not be a definitive statement as HSE are no longer in a position to do this.
The law has changed to put the onus on the end user.
It's an EU thing.
Many regs have and are changing in this way.
I'm not saying I like it either, but that is the way it is going to be!
It only affects business anyway, not the DIY'er.

Hi Paul,

I was sure I had seen table-saw dado stacks for sale in the UK. As far as I understood, the home DIY worker can use these legally. It's down to the individual. Most of our American friends don't even consider a table-saw as complete, without a Dado cutter. Generally, their response is. "Keep your hands away from spinning cutters." Accidents happen though, and kick-back can always occur, but it's never been a serious problem to me.

As far as DIY workers are concerned, way back in 1971 I could have bought a spindle block for my Coronet Combination machine. For use with a 1hp motor! I didn't think that was a good idea. I wouldn't consider a spindle moulder in my shop, because I am plain leary of them, having seen some awful results of their misuse. :shock:
Just my 2p'orth
FWIW!

Regards
John

 

[ondablade]

Machine Mart definitely had Freud sets for sale a couple of years ago John, and they still do: http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/produ ... -30mm-bore

 

[Benchwayze]

Thanks Ian.

Not that I would buy one, as I don't think a 1hp motor is man enough to swing them safely.
But as they say in the States. If you use one, just use common-sense too!

Thanks,
Regards John

 

[kirkpoore1]

I've read this thread with interest, and I'm somewhat puzzled by the concern that dado stacks are unusually dangerous. Assuming you have an overarm guard so that the blade is covered as it exits the wood, I just don't see what the big deal is. I've used one a few times at a friend's house, and it's simply not an issue. Even with no riving knife or splitter, there is no chance of the wood pinching and kicking back because the wood is not being cut all the way through. I suppose if you lost your grip while crosscutting on a dado stack, you could get a kickback from the wood getting twisted, but that could happen with a regular blade just as easily if you lost your grip before getting to the riving knife. As for the regulation saying the blade must stop in 10 seconds, I think any belt driven saw would easily meet this requirement from simple friction.

Now, I will say that I don't have a dado stack for my tablesaw. I run long rabbets and dadoes on my shaper, and cross cut them on my RAS, so it's not really something I need.

Kirk

 

[NetBlindPaul]

kirk,

I don't believe that any equipment is inherently dangerous!
Very few old table saws will stop in 10 sec, most new ones do by design.
I think I look after one which took about 1 minute to stop when the dc brake failed!
The thing is there is more energy to dissipate with a dado stack so it will increase the strain on the machine systems.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Ian
That's amazing really. I have that same set, or at least its predecessor. I don't think you could tell them apart except for their livery.
I paid £70 for mine from the USA. I could have bought the same product at Tabwell's in Bakewell for £140. Made in Italy, shipped tot he States, then shipped to my door for half what it cost over the counter up the road.

That was 20 years ago.

Kirk
You are right, of course. But the problem is that most hobby woodworkers don't have that overhead guard and if you are using a piddling little mitre gauge for support, that twisting is all too easy.

Properly used, on a machine designed to take them, yes fine. But so often they are not and the examples shown to us by the "experts" (so often American - sorry, not blaming you personally ) leave a lot to be desired.

Their mass is another factor - where does all that energy go in an emergency?

Cheers
Steve

 

[andy king]

Their mass is another factor - wher does all that energy go in an emergency?

Cheers
Steve

Plus the other thing - and i've stated this before, is that should you be unfortunate enough to come into contact with a saw blade, it may very well take a digit off, but also be maybe lucky enough to be sewn back on with micro surgery.
I doubt you'd be so lucky if a digit came into contact with a dado, a mangled mess would be more likely.
cheers,
Andy

 

[ondablade]

There is of course a solution to that Andy. :wink: Try playing the 'revolution in woodworking tool safety' video at the bottom of this page: http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/364 ... everything

 

[Chataigner]

Even if the rules are 100%, and the parties somehow 100% competent and trustworthy - any shortfall in the motivation/attention of those working must result in errors. Yet in our hubris we (from whichever side) persist in behaving as though perfection is the norm.

I'd argue that it's out of our attempts to square this particular (un-squareable) circle that much of the injustice and ineffectiveness (e.g. the fog of uncertainty that surrounds dado cutters) of rule based systems flows....

Yes Ondablade, that for me sums up the problem - no-one is allowed to have an accident, everything must be perfect.

Trouble is, the process makes everyone risk averse and stifles innovation and creativity. Plus it absorbs much energy in debating issues like this one concerning dado blades, a distraction from the real job of making things. It all has a rather decadent "fin de siecle" feel about it. We have lost sight of what made europe prosperous and deserve to be displaced by the east where it seems society still really wants to get on with the job.

 

[ondablade]

What's frustrating too C is that the previously mentioned fog of negativity must put many people off dado cutters. Yet when viewed from a 'what do we need to do to make it possible' perspective it seems very much like there's nothing tangible that says it's any less legitimate than using a normal blade:

Pulling together most of the inputs:

1 Dado heads must be chip limiting in design (they are)
2 They must be guarded (you can't use a riving knife mounted guard, but there are options, cut closure doesn't happen, and anyway most cuts are covered by the workpiece)
3 The saw must still stop within 10 seconds (normal surely? The weight is likely not a big issue anyway given the smaller 6in and 8in diameters - rotational moment of inertia increases with the square of the radius, so I'd be surprised if they are much different to stop than a 10in blade)
4 The workpiece must be properly supported throughout the cut. (normal?)
5 The saw needs to be compliant, and to be set up to accept a dado cutter. (what you'd expect?)
6 They are available in the UK

Stick your hand in one and its going to be messy, and the wider blade could in a specific situation do more damage - but surely on average not significantly more so than in the case of a normal (much higher) saw blade?

:?: So why the fear of flying and the whiff of gunpowder???? It'd be nice to see the topic treated on the more straightforward basis of practical pros and cons.....

 

[Sgian Dubh]

... cut closure doesn't happen, and anyway most cuts are covered by the workpiece)

Actually, closure of the cut can occur in much the same way it can happen during through cuts such as resawing (deep ripping) and in regular ripping. The cause of closure after the cut in this circumstance (and the opposite opening up) is, as ever, the release of stress within the wood. The stress may be any one of, or a combination of the following: case-hardening, reverse case-hardening or naturally occurring growth stresses.

I have experienced this kind of pinching on the cutter (or opening up) during moulding operations of various sorts, eg spindle moulding, and I observed it occurring on dado heads in the workshop during the time I lived and worked in Texas.

However, it is the case that pinching or opening up on buried cutters tends to be rare because stresses of the type I've mentioned are usually spotted at the initial machining phase, meaning the wood is usually rejected before it gets to the point where it needs additional moulding... but not always. Slainte.

 

[ondablade]

Thanks SG, that's good to know. Am I reading you correctly in feeling that it doesn't seem (?) like it puts dado cutters into the sort of high risk territory that the prevailing vibe suggests?