How would you rate the UK's handling of this pandemic?

[selly]

Strawman

Who says nobody gives a toss?

V v little media coverage compared to covid

 

[RobinBHM]

He is not advocating genocide. For goodness sake. Hippocratic oath - first do no harm. There is definitely an argument that the death of an 87 year old in a care home is not the same as the death of a 65 year old from a missed mammogram in my world. Possibly not in yours

Another strawman.

You make the assumption that there is a choice.

Hospitals in London are treating people in ICU that are not 87 year olds, but are in their 30s, 40s, 50s 60s as well.

And these hospitals are now so overwhelmed they are taking over children's wards, operating theatres, acute wards etc.


Please could explain how you arrive at the conclusion there is a choice

 

[selly]

Another strawman.

You make the assumption that there is a choice.

Hospitals in London are treating people in ICU that are not 87 year olds, but are in their 30s, 40s, 50s 60s as well.

And these hospitals are now so overwhelmed they are taking over children's wards, operating theatres, acute wards etc.


Please could explain how you arrive at the conclusion there is a choice

Hospitals were not overwhelmed in the first wave. There was capacity. And that was when covid was rife, untested for and very little hands space face

 

[RobinBHM]

No millions will not die. You have a. 2-.5% chance of dieing if over 80

Non sequitur.

Statistics based on deaths are despite massive intervention......and yes far more would die without intervention.

Perhaps you could explain why over 700 healthcare workers and hundreds of essential workers like bus drivers have died.

Far more of those would die if this virus was allowed to spread faster and wider.

I suggest you go and volunteer for your local hospital Covid ward.....you wouldn't have the same opinion then.

 

[RobinBHM]

Hospitals were not overwhelmed in the first wave. There was capacity. And that was when covid was rife, untested for and very little hands space face

Strawman.

I was talking about this wave.

In the first wave hundreds of healthcare workers died.

And hospitals weren't overwhelmed because of of massive NPI i.e. Lockdown.

You are also wrong, there was lots of social distancing in the first lockdown and people started to take precautions from early to mid march. Studies show clearly lockdown lowered the curve.

If government had acted harder and faster the first wave would've been less bad with less economic damage

 

[selly]

Non sequitur.

Statistics based on deaths are despite massive intervention......and yes far more would die without intervention.

Perhaps you could explain why over 700 healthcare workers and hundreds of essential workers like bus drivers have died.

Far more of those would die if this virus was allowed to spread faster and wider.

I suggest you go and volunteer for your local hospital Covid ward.....you wouldn't have the same opinion then.

No they weren't massive intervention early on.

My local hospital is quiet. Some hospitals are busy. Some are not. I know you are trying to intimate that anyone who doesn't agree with lock down means they want everyone to die but it's not true.

 

[selly]

Strawman.

I was talking about this wave.

In the first wave hundreds of healthcare workers died.

And hospitals weren't overwhelmed because of of massive NPI i.e. Lockdown.

You are also wrong, there was lots of social distancing in the first lockdown and people started to take precautions from early to mid march. Studies show clearly lockdown lowered the curve.

If government had acted harder and faster the first wave would've been less bad with less economic damage

The curve turned before lock down. Also the curve in Wales has increased afte the October lock down.

 

[NormanB]

No they weren't massive intervention early on.

My local hospital is quiet. Some hospitals are busy. Some are not. I know you are trying to intimate that anyone who doesn't agree with lock down means they want everyone to die but it's not true.

Can you name the specific DGH you are referring to please?

 

[Rorschach]

Perhaps you could explain why over 700 healthcare workers and hundreds of essential workers like bus drivers have died.

Do you know how many of these people would die in a 10 month period in a "normal" year?

 

[doctor Bob]

Anyone with historic knowledge of this forum cannot dispute this.

why not?

 

[Jake]

That BBC article was cleverly worded, it's not the highest excess deaths since WW2 it's the highest increase % since WW2 that doesn't take into account population change. Dr Liam Fox even called out the BBC for that article in Parliament and put it into perspective.

I don't know about that BBC article. My source is Nick Stripe of the ONS, posted a thread on Twitter in his analysis of the 2020 figures when they were made public. I should have added "not population adjusted". It's an interesting thread.

Second edit, having gone back to check it is true (according to NS of the ONS) on a polulation adjusted basis as well.

 

[Jake]

The constant testing of asymptomatics or even those who don't have it using a super sensitive pcr is total skewing the whole thing. We will never escape from this if we keep pcr testing like this

This amounts to let's shut our eyes and pretend.

 

[Lons]

Do you know how many of these people would die in a 10 month period in a "normal" year?

That's a stupid question based on the fact they are all of working age and not in the vulnerable old age and infirm bracket

 

[Jake]

Having just re-read it, it is a really thoughtful and insightful thread, from someone undeniably expert. Well worth a read.

 

[Lons]

What is your opinion of the 30k excess deaths in the home this year? Necessary collateral damage?

Any excess deaths are horrific and should never be classed as collateral damage but there is no simple answer to the question. It was concuded by some experts that throughout last year even when hospitals were quiet late summer people were still avoiding hospitals, doctors and surgeries as they were scared, there were tv adverts saying "the NHS is open for business, don't put health issues off", what else were they suposed to do? You cant force people.
The other question that also has to be asked is how do we know there would not have been even more excess deaths at home had the hospitals and surgeries been completely overun and many more staff off work ill because the virus was allowed to run even more rampant than it did?

Both my wife and daughter had major operations in September without issue because they had the sense to do something about it I know others locally who didn't, not the fault of the system.

 

[Lons]

No they weren't massive intervention early on.

My local hospital is quiet. Some hospitals are busy. Some are not. I know you are trying to intimate that anyone who doesn't agree with lock down means they want everyone to die but it's not true.

I don't know where you live Selly but if that's the case then you're lucky as there are many hospitals in the UK close to capacity and with serious staff issues due to Covid infection, members of my family work in some of them and very strange that our local RVI in Newcastle is taking in patients from other regions because of that, they aren't the only hospital being asked to do so either.

 

[selly]

Can you name the specific DGH you are referring to please?

No.

 

[selly]

I don't know where you live Selly but if that's the case then you're lucky as there are many hospitals in the UK close to capacity and with serious staff issues due to Covid infection, members of my family work in some of them and very strange that our local RVI in Newcastle is taking in patients from other regions because of that, they aren't the only hospital being asked to do so either.

Yes but those same hospitals are always busy. We get respiratory disease spikes every year

 

[Selwyn]

Another strawman.

You make the assumption that there is a choice.

Hospitals in London are treating people in ICU that are not 87 year olds, but are in their 30s, 40s, 50s 60s as well.

And these hospitals are now so overwhelmed they are taking over children's wards, operating theatres, acute wards etc.


Please could explain how you arrive at the conclusion there is a choice

90% are over 65. A minute number are in their 30's and 40's. A small number in their 50's. Most likely these people will have been clinically vulnerable.

 

[NormanB]

No.

Are you prepared to say why not. Does it threaten your physical security, or perhaps, lead to an undermining of your stated fact that concerns you?