How would you do this

[Kev]

I am planning to make some doors to the entrance to my new kitchen and wanted some advice on joints or how you would go about is basically. The doors (internal) will be double doors that open both ways. Have not thought how to do this yet but probably some sort of pivot hinge, anyway I digress.

The doors will look like this.

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=a67661f3f423b5f8c82365f298c31497

This is only a rough sketch at the moment. The main head scratcher at the moment is how to fix the curve where it meets the rails of the door on one side and where the two ends of the curve meet the rail and head/bottom rail on the other side. What are opinions on the best way to secure this i.e best joint. Would biscuits be best or does it need something stronger? I have overlapped where the arc meets the rail to make allowance for the rebate to hold the glass. In terms of the rebates I was planning to run these with a router once the door is assembled and then of course tidy up the corners etc. Just seemed to be easier this way.

Anyway, any ideas.

Thanks


Kev

 

[Dibs-h]

The main head scratcher at the moment is how to fix the curve where it meets the rails of the door on one side

A domino might do it - failing that, I'd much rather use dowels, going into the curved bit and also into the stile (the vertical), than biscuits. Perhaps assembled the door - drill thru from the back, thru the stile and into the curved bit. Glue and drive the dowels in.

where the two ends of the curve meet the rail and head/bottom rail on the other side.

If you continued the curve further into the stile (in the corner) and straightened it - you may get another mortice underneath the one that's already there and do it that way. Assembly might be less hassle to - slot the curve (both ends) into the stile, fit the top and bottom rails and then the last style (the one that has hinges). Drill thru and fit the dowels, locking the curved bit to the stile.

Seems reasonable, but I suspect someone might be along with another and perhaps better idea.

HIH

Dibs

 

[Kev]

Thanks Dibs,

Like the idea of the morticers into the hinge rail, would probably have stub tenons rather than go all the way through but would still add strength to the overall door it seems. You are probably right about using dowels, will give more lateral strength to the curve.

Should be quite a fun little project!

kev

 

[joiner_sim]

Hi Kev,

I would definatley Mortice & Tennon the ends of the curve into the stile, however I'd consider making it a stub mortice for neatness, although a thru-tennon would be stronger with the wedge to hold it.

The middle of the curve is slightly different though. I dont think a traditional joint would be easy to do here, so biscuits would probably be easiect. However if a butt-joint with biscuits doesnt appeal to you, you could think about using the rebate of the stile to your advantage. Possibly using a router, cut out for the rebate (in the stile) in the curve, allowing you to sit it in the rebate giving you a strong joint for the curve.

Hope that sort of makes sense!

 

[Guggs]

Before you even consider making these doors ,sort out your ironmongery ,then set out on mdf a full size door complete with tolerences for eg pivot hinges . Then and only then consider what joints to use !

 

[Kev]

What I should have said is this will be in oak which is not a problem in terms of making the door ( some useful pointers all round by the way - thanks) but how would people go about making the beading for the curved members. The beading will just be square egded and only 10mm think but doubt oak will bend around the curve. I assume they will need to be steam bended. Could laminated thinner strips I guess but not sure if this will look okay given that it will not have a natural finish and not be painted. Anyone laminated like this and is so what did it look like?

Kev

 

[Eric The Viking]

Is that glass in the main segments, or all six areas?

Don't want to be a killjoy, but you may struggle to find some suitable glass. In my very limited experience curved pieces of safety glass end up very expensive, as glaziers hate cutting them, and curved, acute angles are a nightmare to deal with. I know it's done in traditional cabinet work, but they are usually much smaller pieces, so mistakes aren't as costly.

Could you cheat perhaps, by making a conventional strong rectangular rail and stile frame and planting (sticking) the curved rails onto the glass surface? If it's done carefully it could look very good, and it doesn't preclude you doing nice joints.

Just a thought.

E.

 

[Dibs-h]

Is that glass in the main segments, or all six areas?

Don't want to be a killjoy, but you may struggle to find some suitable glass. In my very limited experience curved pieces of safety glass end up very expensive, as glaziers hate cutting them, and curved, acute angles are a nightmare to deal with. I know it's done in traditional cabinet work, but they are usually much smaller pieces, so mistakes aren't as costly.

Could you cheat perhaps, by making a conventional strong rectangular rail and stile frame and planting (sticking) the curved rails onto the glass surface? If it's done carefully it could look very good, and it doesn't preclude you doing nice joints.

Just a thought.

E.

Eric

Could it be done in normal glass which is then covered in that safety film (that holds it together in the event of a smash)?

Dibs

 

[Kev]

I agree that the glass is going to need a few sharp intakes of breath when it comes to cost. I guess I could stick the curves on to both sides to make it look like a solid rail but was just a bit worreid that it would be to noticlable.

I could also use safety film as is suggested but again would be worried that it was to noticeable especially if it obscures the view through the glass in any way.

I think the way forward will be goverend by the cost of the glass. I will have to draw up a full size plan of this door to get the curves right and will make templates of this to go and get a price for the glass at this stage. At this point I can decide which way to progress.

Kev

 

[Eric The Viking]

Out of curiosity, are you intending to bend the curves, say from oak laminates, or cut the curves from solid?

 

[joiner_sim]

I think the "applied glazing curves" maybe be an easier and cheaper option for you all round. However, if you do still want to make it solid after getting a quote for the glass, then I'll give you some advice on how I used to do the beading for arch work. Get the widest timber you can, thickness it to your required amound, then cut it out using the rebate line as your cutting line on the bandsaw. Then, what ever thickness you then require again to match the rebate, set the bandsaw fence up and push thru that way. You could even bevel the beading if you tilt the table. I'd have guessed you could do it in 2-3 pieces. This may not be the correct way, but it is the way I was taught to do it and the customers didn't complain.

 

[Dibs-h]

I could also use safety film as is suggested but again would be worried that it was to noticeable especially if it obscures the view through the glass in any way.

Safety film is available i many types - clear, slight-dark tints, different colours and frosted as well. Shouldn't be an issue. You could look at laminated glass - which should be eeasier\cheaper than toughened shaped glass.

HIH

Dibs

 

[Guggs]

I would make applied beads and have a single piece of 6mm safety glass , as regards to laminating not worth the hassle ,you would be far better off making a template of the exact size of beading then using either a spindle moulder or a bearing guided router cutter ,clean them up . As i have said in my earlier post ,set the whole door out . Get a sheet of mdf ,draw out the door complete with curves ,mark out and machine the door to the setting out rod ,then using the rod ,either mark out the curves on a seperate piece of 9mm mdf or cut and clean up the arcs on the rod . Make sure you highlight the radius points for ease of relocation .I know it sounds daft but a mans best friend is his rod !

 

[Kev]

Out of curiosity, are you intending to bend the curves, say from oak laminates, or cut the curves from solid?

Eric - will do the curves out of solid oak, should hopefully get away with two peices for each curve. The beading is still up for debate :? .

I think the "applied glazing curves" maybe be an easier and cheaper option for you all round.

Probably right JS - just on this how do you then stick it to the glass? Do you use silicone or the like and how visible is it?

Cheers for the thought on the glazing bars, seems sensible but just wondered how easier was it to clean up when you did it this way?

You could look at laminated glass - which should be eeasier\cheaper than toughened shaped glass.

I think you are right Dibs and think that is what I had in mind to be honest, it should certainly be easier to cut to different shapes.

Kev