How much set?

[Routermonster]

Over the past few months I seem to have acquired a small pile of hand saws (no - I'm not a c*ll*ct*r) ..... and I'm still trying to learn to saw in a straight line.

I bought a Roberts & Lee 12" cross-cut tenon saw earlier in the year, but apart from taking it out of its wrapper from time to time to admire its oiled walnut handle I haven't really used it in anger until a few days ago.

OK, I know I need to practice, but I when I make a cut it seems to be creating a fairly wide kerf, which causes the saw to wobble around, the resulting cut being neither straight nor vertical. I've made some measurements with a feeler gauge and dial calipers, and I've established that the saw blade thickness is approximately 0.75 mm (30 thou), and that the width of the kerf (in a piece of hardwood) is about 1.1 mm (45 thou). Is this too much set?

By way of contrast, I have a couple of old Tyzack 10" cross-cut tenon saws bought off e-bay, and although they do need sharpening (and setting?) they cut much narrower kerfs and stay straight in the cut, even allowing for my ham-fisted technique.

There isn't much set on the old Tyzacks, so when I take the plunge and sharpen them, can I get away with just topping and filing the teeth (provided they don't bind when cutting)?

BTW I've got a couple of dovetail saws. One is a Tyzack which I bought 20 years ago. A few months ago, I topped and filed the teeth in a rip pattern. I didn't bother with re-setting them (too scared to try!), but the saw cuts pretty well now. I was quite pleased with the result of my efforts until I bought a new LN - the performance of which is much better!

Anyway, are there any guidelines for how much set there should be on a 10" or 12" tenon saw?

Thanks for your help

Les

 

[jmk89]

Les

I have always used the "suck it and see" approach. If the saw doesn't sit in the kerf happily and binds, it needs more set. If it is simple to use then it has enough.

There are some good articles on saw sharpening and setting at
http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/fram ... brary.html
and at
http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/index.html

Sounds as though the Tyzacks are fine, so leave 'em alone....

Cheers

Jeremy

 

[Alf]

Like Jeremy, I use trial and error, which isn't much use in advising anyone via the printed word. #-o Remember the amount of set depends on the wood too. I can only think R&L assume the worst case senario, that their tenon saws will get used on soggy Bent & Quirky pine, and anyone using anything else will remove some set.

Cheers, Alf

 

[bugbear]

Like Jeremy, I use trial and error, which isn't much use in advising anyone via the printed word. #-o Remember the amount of set depends on the wood too. I can only think R&L assume the worst case senario, that their tenon saws will get used on soggy Bent & Quirky pine, and anyone using anything else will remove some set.

Cheers, Alf

Further, I think they'd rather sell a saw that leaves a wide kerf than a saw than jams.

BugBear

 

[Paul Sellers]

There are so many sizes of saws and different ways to set and sharpen them to that it is often confusing for may who are new to the art. saw sharpening and setting are two basic and very simple tasks. All too often,saws coming from many modern-day manufacturers have far too much set which is in fact as detrimental to the saws function as too little set in that the saw seems to wander,bounce and balk at the slightest resistance and then deviates from its main task which is to cut a straight and true line in any type of wood regardless of the type of wood. yes you need a little more set than normal when ripping or/and cross cutting damp or wet wood. Most of us avoid that problem and keep a saw set aside for that purpose thatt has more set. generally, it is accepted that we are not going to use wet wood unless it is for carpentry or rougher joinery such as for building construction site work.
Forget the dial calipers and gauges. Saw sharpening soon becomes intuitive and you will be able to adjust the profile of the teeth and set according to the task in hand. Almost all of the saws that have different names made in Sheffield come for a single manufacturer that makes different categories of saws according to quality. In reality there is little difference between the fancier saws and the more run of the mill ones. they take a little more effort with the more expensive ones and hand file the teeth and set the teeth with less set. I have literally bought dozens and dozens of saws fro different companies and you must remember that many Sheffield tool makers live off their father's reputation rather than really taking care to produce a quality item they often take good materials and produce careless or shoddy work. the end result is that you end up with a saw that doesn't cut well. Although I agree that that's a shame, there is little that you can do about it it. here is the answer. treat the saw like a kit that has already been assembled. Almost all saws made in Sheffield will have too much set. that's a given. I have found that the best way to remove the overbend of teeth, that is, over set by using a good Warrington crosspein hammer and carefully tapping the teeth using a flat plate of steel as an anvil or a second hammer upturned in the vise using the other hammer face as an anvil. Yes, I know this is contrary to all the warnings on hammers, but I emphasize tap, not hammer and pound. First run down one side and then flip the saw over and repeat on the other side to catch the other teeth. This may seem contrary to what you feel is correct but it has worked for me for over forty years of woodworking full time year in year out. Once you have tapped, repeat tapped, all of the teeth from both sides you will find that the saw has improved around a thousand percent. You do not generally have to reset the teeth as there is enough spring back in the steel to recover some of the set. This is what we call memory.
The second problem with Sheffield-manufactured saws is that they are rarely sharp. That's why many of the US and Canadian saw makers are having such success selling saws at three and four times the price of UK ones. They sell sharp, well-set saws in pristine condition just like their forebears did under the Disston banner. To sharpen them is a simple task and if you contact me I will send you a short and concise article I wrote for one of the UK magazines that will help you throughout your saw restoration projects.
The reason that some of the old saws work so well, even no-name makes, is that they were made of much thinner gauge steel and that means that the teeth are thinner too. This translates into removing much less material and therefor much less effort. The old saws also have much more comfortable handles that their modern-day counterparts unless you are buying one of Lie-Nielsen's which offer the most superb comfort of any of the present manufacturers. Sharpen your old purchases and they will last you for a lifetime. By the way. Topping and sharpening will not put set on the teeth and so the saw will always bind in the cut no matter how sharp the teeth. The reason for this is that when you push the saw into the cut, all of the fibres are pushed in one direction. Away from you if it's a Western-type push saw, towards you if its a Japanese-type pull saw. Many saws are taper-ground and so the tooth line is wider than the blade which tapers from tooth line to the back of the saw. That translates into a form of set but not a true set. Most saw sets only go down to a 12-point saw. You can still use this sawset to set the teeth. You will of course be over setting the teeth but the solution is to fallow the procedures I outlined above. The saw should now cut every bit as well as the LN. many people who buy LN saws forget that they will end sharpening if they intend to use them. Might as well get into the habit of sharpening them now. It's an expensive thing to send off the saws to have them sharpened and if you are like me you may not want anyone setting and sharpening your saws.
Hope this all helps.
Paul Sellers

 

[Alf]

Welcome to the forum, Paul. If you fancy a long soak in the archive you'll find this is no means our first forray into saw talk, and lots of disscusion along the lines you outline. In the same way the sharpening job can be adjusted, lots of members think nothing of adjusting the handle as well these days. It's getting to the point where we could do with a source for just the blades and a handful of saw bolts and we can do the rest. :wink: :lol:

Cheers, Alf

P.S. Have you tried a Wenzloff? Now there's comfort.

 

[kees]

Cheers, Alf

P.S. Have you tried a Wenzloff? Now there's comfort.

and a nice "axchangerate" € vs $ = 1,40 : 1 and Mike is doing the job

 

[Paul Chapman]

Welcome to the forum, Paul.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

Not trying to kick off a mega thread here honest :lol: . But guess what I've taken to freehand saw sharpening :roll:
Basically, with saw held in saw chops I work up one side, turn, and up the other, but without looking too closely at the teeth. Then lightly pass a stone along each side to even up.
Then only setting the teeth if it is sticking in the cut.
The assumption is that if I maintain an even pressure and angle then it'll all work out OK in the end, and the odd shortened or badly filed tooth won't matter too much and will be corrected in time anyway.
Seems to work, is quicker and avoids that neck straining, headache inducing, close-up concentration. The big benefit of course is that being quick and easy means having sharp saws more of the time, instead of postponing the inevitable.
Is this a good idea?

cheers
Jacob

 

[Anonymous]

Is this a good idea?

cheers
Jacob

I thought this was what most people did? Certainly pretty much how I do it

 

[andy king]

While freehand sharpening may be a quick fix, and a low tooth or three won't cause too many headaches, by not topping to indicate shiners, freehanding is likely to leave odd high ones as well as low ones, which are far more problematic, the saw is likely to judder, jump or stick slightly as the high teeth come into play.
The occasional light touch up freehand shouldn't cause too many headaches, but doing it a few times can compound initial errors, so I still tend to give a very light top as you can get a consistent razor point far easier.
That said, I seldom use the traditional sharpen one side, spin the saw, then do the other.
I was shown as an apprentice by my tutors this method, but a technician at the college showed me an alternative which I have stuck with for years, working from one side of the saw only. It's used often for rip filing smaller tooth saws, but on crosscut patterns it's something that I've not seen since. (although I have been pulled up for it at a show by someone who told me the saw will never cut or track straight doing it that way. Hasn't been a problem since I was 17 though :roll
Anyway, the idea is to alternate the file bevel each time, so you shape each tooth as you go, rather than rely on taking it off alternate teeth and spinning.
For me it works as you can judge each tooth and the one behind it as to where to apply the pressure during the stroke if needed, and you get into a good rhythm. I find I can quickly get razor points and also a consistent hook angle on the tooth, so cows and calves are less likely.
It can be said that the bevel can alter as you go, and this is true, but like a lot of things, practice makes you consistent, hopefully consistent in maintaining a constant angle, not consistent in altering one!
If I feel i'm losing the angle, the file can be dropped into a previously sharpened gullet, held and dropped into the tooth being worked to see if its similar. Holding the setting will tweak accordingly.
The only problem I have is pushing against the set on the forward facing teeth, especially on bigger tooth patterns as they can judder, but setting low in the chops helps minimise this.
It's only if I want a proper needlepoint fleam by dropping the file handle for a compound angle that I go back to traditional methods, but most sharpening is quicker and normally good enough for most things by holding the file horizontally in the gullet.
Can't say if this will work for everyone or anyone, but I find it quicker and easier than the traditional way.
Oh yes, I do tend to file ripsaws traditionally though as the judder from the file is too much, but rip filing is far easier to control anyway.

Andy

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Glad to see the idea of letting the file find equilibrium in a 'good' gullet to set the angles - guess it's common knowledge, but I only figured it out this month (doh!)

Must get some rifle black - I find old, heavily patinated teeth so much easier to see than black marker on a shiny tooth.

Also wondered about moving my hand to the other side instead of flipping the saw for high fleam angle (? not fleam cut, just very acute bevels on a cross cut) as it still feels awkward, like the file's in the wrong hand (not ambidextrous, unfortunately.) Just need to get used to it, suppose.

Cheers
Steve

 

[andy king]

Hi Steve,

it does take a little getting used to initially, although (for me anyway) unlike the usual advice to use a bigger toothed saw as a learner, I found a smaller toothed one better as the resistance against the set is lessened so you can control the file far easier.
I also find it easier to sharpen about 100mm of teeth, then shuffle along the saw (checking in a gullet if needed) as you tend to start twisting your wrists too much if you try and sharpen too far across the saw in one go without moving your feet along.
One thing I forgot to mention, pushing against the set can make the file lose its effectiveness more quickly, but the results for me outweigh this.

Andy

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Hi Andy
Not sure what you mean by pushing against the set? Do you mean working with the set away tooth back on the toe side of the file (so, if cross cut, the file tip is pointing towards the handle)
Does it make a difference for large teeth? Have only worked the other way.
For fine toothed saws, I'd have thought the other way would be necessary to generate a burr at the front rather than the back of the tooth.
Cheers
Steve

 

[andy king]

hi Steve,

I mean that on alternating file strokes you are working the tooth with the set facing towards you, the next time the tooth is set away from you, so you are filing against the set some of the time and get more resistance.
It means that the file angle is alternated for each stroke, one to the handle, the next to the tip of the saw etc. and t's getting a rythym and technique to keep the file angle constant that is the initial difficulty I found, but once mastered, the ease in working each tooth rather than every other one is where I find it speeds the process up.
It does, in my opinion, give you a better opportunity to dress each tooth as you go so you can apply pressure from the file to the front or back of the tooth accordingly, so if you have an old saw that has been poorly sharpened, you can bring them back into shape more easily, and don't need to do a full redress of the teeth too often.
Does this make sense? probably not!:roll:

Andy

 

[Anonymous]

Why doesn't it leave a bit of a burr on the away side of the teeth which would make the cutting action unequal - or is this balanced out when you run a stone down the sides?
Would you file from one side for one sharpening, and the other for the next?
I'll have a go anyway.
I used to send mine off to a saw doctor but I'm trying to cure myself of the habit.
cheers
Jacob

 

[Alf]

Certainly for reshaping teeth I've worked from one side 'cos it is an awful lot easier, but guilt has always kicked in when it comes to the final sharpening pass. Inevitably got more saws to sharpen so maybe I'll give it a go.

Cheers, Alf

 

[andy king]

Yep, it can leave a very fine burr on one side of the saw, and this is where I was told that the saw would never cut or track straight by someone at a show, but i've done it like this for 29 years, and i've yet to get a problem. The file should only be used lightly anyway, so shouldn't make huge burrs, and I find that any that do form work off after a few strokes in a cut.
The burr, or lack of it in some cases, varies from saw to saw. A couple of Canadian Disstons, both from the same era and bought from the same shop have different characteristics, the panel saw burrs slightly, the crosscut doesn't seem to get any.
I only put a stone along the set of the teeth if I feel the saw is over set and wandering in too wide a kerf.

Andy

 

[bugbear]

Not trying to kick off a mega thread here honest :lol: . But guess what I've taken to freehand saw sharpening :roll:
Basically, with saw held in saw chops I work up one side, turn, and up the other, but without looking too closely at the teeth. Then lightly pass a stone along each side to even up.
Then only setting the teeth if it is sticking in the cut.
The assumption is that if I maintain an even pressure and angle then it'll all work out OK in the end, and the odd shortened or badly filed tooth won't matter too much and will be corrected in time anyway.
Seems to work, is quicker and avoids that neck straining, headache inducing, close-up concentration. The big benefit of course is that being quick and easy means having sharp saws more of the time, instead of postponing the inevitable.
Is this a good idea?

cheers
Jacob

Sounds like a recipe for unevenly shaped teeth whose tops are at different heights in the long term. Not good.

It'll work as a touch up on a saw that's already in good shape.

BugBear

 

[Routermonster]

Dear All

Sorry for not replying earlier, but thank you so much for your comments and suggestions. There's plenty to think about now! I've just got to set aside some time to have a go at my saws.

Thanks again

Les