How Many Dovetails Make A Joint ?

[custard]

And they’re easy enough to make, and very useful when first starting out

Someone posted a few months ago about a side table they'd made. The table featured bridle joints, and he made a similar magnetic jig to cut them.

Bridle joints are killer to make flawlessly with hand tools. IMO they're harder than dovetails, because with a dovetail you can cut the joint a bit snug and it'll look tight and gap free. If you cut a bridle joint snug it'll just spring apart and look gappy, so it's either perfect or it looks crepe. Anyhow, despite being fairly new to furniture making, he did a superb job with his home made jig.

 

[Bm101]

And they’re easy enough to make, and very useful when first starting out, like stabilisers on a bike. Made this one sometime last year with boxwood

Christonabike. Hobby woodworkers. [-o<
You're going to need little wheels on them Sawdust. They won't work as stabilisers otherwise mate. Just saying. I can't even see how you're going to attach them to your bike. They're just going to be dragging all over the floor pal. Don't mean to knock you down mind. You've done some reasonable work in the past but this idea is fundamentally flawed if I'm honest.
Just trying to help.
Regards
Chris

 

[MikeG.]

What's the magnet for?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

What's the magnet for?

It's for winding Jacob up.

 

[custard]

What's the magnet for?

It holds the saw plate.

A couple of years ago I used one in a post to show a guy how he might cut a dovetail when he only had the use of one hand.

post1073826.html?hilit=one%20handed%20dovetail#p1073826

You can see the David Barron version in action, plus a slightly cheaper, newer (and probably better) alternative here,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd6VD1mXvRA&frags=wn

Or you could make your own easily enough.

These things make dovetailing so straightforward I can't understand why there's still so much apprehension about having a go. Dovetails are pretty easy just by eye after a bit of practise, but with one of these you're virtually guaranteed decent results right from the get go.

 

[nabs]

And they’re easy enough to make, and very useful when first starting out

Someone posted a few months ago about a side table they'd made. The table featured bridle joints, and he made a similar magnetic jig to cut them.

a couple of us posted in the projects section about making the same side table design and we both used the jigs.

Credit for the idea is with Richard Maquire who came up with it for the same reason Custard explained, namely that the joint is both tricky and seldom used (so not much chance to practice). My efforts are ample evidence that they are fool proof!

[youtube]2SQ8s3mqd74[/youtube]

 

[MikeG.]

What's the magnet for?

It holds the saw plate.......

I can't see what the benefit of that is, frankly. Am I being dim here? You've still got to saw to the angle of the guide, whether or not you've got a magnet there. How hard is it to just follow the guide, without a magnet?

I just set a bevel gauge and hold that somewhere near as a visual guide......if I'm being really fussy. Often as not I'd just eyeball it without a guide.

 

[custard]

I can't see what the benefit of that is, frankly. Am I being dim here? You've still got to saw to the angle of the guide, whether or not you've got a magnet there. How hard is it to just follow the guide, without a magnet?

I was astonished when I used one at how much grip the magnet delivers, it would give a beginner a massive confidence boost.

Look, I'm not trying to persuade you to use one, I don't use one either, if you don't need it then you don't need it. But the fact is there are loads of beginning woodworkers who refuse to tackle cutting a dovetail by hand. Just look at the interest garnered on this forum by router powered dovetail jigs. If there's a simple, low cost solution that gets people into their workshops and actually making stuff then it can only be a good thing.

 

[Just4Fun]

I can't see what the benefit of that is, frankly. Am I being dim here? You've still got to saw to the angle of the guide, whether or not you've got a magnet there. How hard is it to just follow the guide, without a magnet?

I made a saw guide without a magnet for cutting dovetails and it is no real problem to saw to the guide. I get results I am happy with; I expect my dovetails to fit straight from the saw with no clean up needed with a chisel. I have cut quite a few joints this way and I believe I have now developed the muscle memory and/or confidence to do the job without the guide. I recently cut some joints without the guide and they came out just as well as joints I cut with the guide. This definitely did not happen before I made my guide, so I guess it has been a good training aid.

I also recently made a long saw guide for cutting sliding dovetails and on this guide I used magnets. I think the magnets made the guide easier to use, but probably the improvement was small.

One caveat is that, for me at least, it depends on the saw. I typically use a western-style saw and with this I think the magnets add little benefit. I have occasionally experimented with a Japanese saw (which I struggle with) and the magnets help me much more. That is probably down to my own incompetence but is nevertheless a good case for using magnets.

 

[Tasky]

Christonabike. Hobby woodworkers. [-o<

Well, we wouldn't need to exist if you "professional artisan craftsmen" weren't so blummin' expensive...

These things make dovetailing so straightforward I can't understand why there's still so much apprehension about having a go. Dovetails are pretty easy just by eye after a bit of practise, but with one of these you're virtually guaranteed decent results right from the get go.

I freely admit to putting a block of wood against my blade when I'm cross-cutting boards, because I'm crepe at sawing straight... really crepe... more crepe than a Candlemas treat!
But at the same time, I think people view these the same way they view the Rob Cosman™ Dovetail Trainer... which is just a really expensive miniature spirit level stuck on the side of the Rob Cosman™ Dovetail Saw... in that they can foster an over-reliance on kit rather than training in a useful and adaptable technique. It's that "guarantee of decent results" thing that's usually plastered all over the marketing of useless guff.... like a £300 chopstick-making jig.

I am totally on board with the idea of using a dovetail sawing guide - I'm about to attempt a project that involves sawing very small things with various different and unusual angles to make different facets (think sawing a stereotypical diamond out of a solid block of wood)... but I still don't feel the need for a magnet, although I do acknowledge that certain people may benefit from them.

My main concern is over what that magnets might do to my tools, even if it's just superficial scrapes and scratches all down the side... that and the flippin' price of the things!!

 

[Just4Fun]

My main concern is over what that magnets might do to my tools, even if it's just superficial scrapes and scratches all down the side

The guide I made for cutting sliding dovetails has magnets that are never in contact with my saw. I took a thin slice off the face that guides the saw, embedded the magnets in the solid piece that was left, then glued the slice back in place, covering the magnets. Voila - what seems to be a magnetic piece of wood.

 

[stuartpaul]

Can I respectfully suggest that there is a massive difference between some of us 'weekend warriors' and the likes of Custard, Mike and Jacob who have almost certainly been through a 'proper' training process and subsequently cut more dovetails than I've had hot dinners?

All I can say from personal experience is one of Dave Barons guides (an older wooden one bought years ago at Yandles) makes me now enjoy hand cutting dovetails, - something I hadn't done since last at school (and that is much, much longer ago than I care to think about!). I've actually got so good at them that the Leigh jig is now sat in the corner gathering dust!

They can't be that bad can they?

 

[Jacob]

Can I respectfully suggest that there is a massive difference between some of us 'weekend warriors' and the likes of Custard, Mike and Jacob who have almost certainly been through a 'proper' training process and subsequently cut more dovetails than I've had hot dinners?

All I can say from personal experience is one of Dave Barons guides (an older wooden one bought years ago at Yandles) makes me now enjoy hand cutting dovetails, - something I hadn't done since last at school (and that is much, much longer ago than I care to think about!). I've actually got so good at them that the Leigh jig is now sat in the corner gathering dust!

They can't be that bad can they?

I haven't done that many DTs. A few, but I'm more joiner than cabinet maker.
But my main theme is that there is enormous pressure to persuade people that many ordinary things are difficult and that you need a gadget/dvd/course etc. Those Baron gadgets seemed particularly excessive to me. I just don't like the de-skilling process and the rip off prices.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Can I respectfully suggest that there is a massive difference between some of us 'weekend warriors' and the likes of Custard, Mike and Jacob who have almost certainly been through a 'proper' training process and subsequently cut more dovetails than I've had hot dinners?

All I can say from personal experience is one of Dave Barons guides (an older wooden one bought years ago at Yandles) makes me now enjoy hand cutting dovetails, - something I hadn't done since last at school (and that is much, much longer ago than I care to think about!). I've actually got so good at them that the Leigh jig is now sat in the corner gathering dust!

They can't be that bad can they?

I haven't done that many DTs. A few, but I'm more joiner than cabinet maker.
But my main theme is that there is enormous pressure to persuade people that many ordinary things are difficult and that you need a gadget/dvd/course etc. Those Baron gadgets seemed particularly excessive to me. I just don't like the de-skilling process and the rip off prices.

Earlier in the thread, someone asked what the magnet was for in the Barron dovetail guide, and I suggested (a little tongue-in-cheek) that it was for winding Jacob up. Here's the proof that it works!

Look fellas, there are more ways than one to saw a dovetail. Training aids, guides, call 'em what you will are just one way, and they're NOT compulsory. If you don't want to use them, then don't. Whether the price is 'rip-off' or not is a decision for the person paying to make, and if you are a complete newcomer and your skill level is basically zero, then deskilling isn't really an issue because you don't have much yet anyway, and it could well help to build some confidence and skill (as others have attested above).

Give newbies a break. For some, better a gentle introduction and slow build of skill than chucked in the deep end, metaphorically drowning, and giving up woodworking for something else.

 

[thetyreman]

in the past they didn't use guides because of insane time pressures which we don't have today, thankfully we don't have the same pressures and we can improve on it by using a simple dovetail template.

 

[MikeG.]

.........Earlier in the thread, someone asked what the magnet was for in the Barron dovetail guide, and I suggested (a little tongue-in-cheek) that it was for winding Jacob up. Here's the proof that it works!

Look fellas, there are more ways than one to saw a dovetail. Training aids, guides, call 'em what you will are just one way, and they're NOT compulsory. If you don't want to use them, then don't. Whether the price is 'rip-off' or not is a decision for the person paying to make, and if you are a complete newcomer and your skill level is basically zero, then deskilling isn't really an issue because you don't have much yet anyway, and it could well help to build some confidence and skill (as others have attested above).

Give newbies a break. For some, better a gentle introduction and slow build of skill than chucked in the deep end, metaphorically drowning, and giving up woodworking for something else.

Ordinarily, this is fair comment, but I've re-read the thread, and can't see anyone sneering at newcomers, or guides even. It was me who asked about magnets, and it was because I was genuinely puzzled as to what it was trying to achieve, and how it could improve on the same bit of kit without a magnet. I'm only slightly clearer now. As always, the problem isn't that these sort of aids exist, it's the pressure people are under to buy stuff which A/ they could make in 5 minutes flat, and B/ makes the job appear more complex than it actually is. It is doing newbies more harm than good to give the impression that X, Y & Z bits of kit are essential, because skills A, B & C are just soooooo difficult they couldn't possibly be tackled without both a lifetime's experience and the latest expensive gizmo hand crafted by a 400 year old hermit living in cave in the Hoggar mountains. I'm guessing more people are driven away from woodworking by this relentless pressure to have more shiny things than are by skill deficits.

 

[Garno]

like a £300 chopstick-making jig.

Don't go for the cheap one, you need to splash out a lot more than that if you want it to come with REAL guarantee's . :shock:

 

[Jacob]

Basic kit which everybody needs.
https://www.axminster.co.uk/bridge-city ... ter-103475

 

[novocaine]

I'm a traditionalist.

https://www.japanesetools.com.au/produc ... -maker-jig

plus import.

I do like that you get a set of sticks, which are basically chopsticks but then you spend an additional 295 quid to refine them, like hot stone cooking really.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Basic kit which everybody needs.
https://www.axminster.co.uk/bridge-city ... ter-103475

(Overheard in the Bridge City design office)

[Mr. City] OK, it's March 23rd, have we got something for the first of next month?

Anybody?

A chopstick maker? Really?? Anything else?

OK, I guess we'll have to go with that. Gotta keep up with those Veritas folks...

... But it's probably worth sticking it on the CPL*, too, just in case somebody is daft enough. I mean, why not?

Hermann, can you work out the production cost and add, say, 400%?

OK, guys & gals, that's it. Adjourned until next week."

Why do people buy Ferraris, when the average speed of London traffic is now slower than the late Victorian era?

But if I had one to sell, and you wanted to buy it...

Just enjoy the irony.

E.
PS: Anybody else think Bridge is a daft name for a child? I bet his parents were weird.
*Corporate Price List