How flat is your bench, musings on thicknessing , techniques

[Cheshirechappie]

To avoid dubbing the ends of a board, apply pressure to the toe and heel of the plane appropriately. At the start of the cut, place the plane with its toe on the board, and use full weight on the toe to press the plane down - apply NO downward pressure with the heel hand, just forward push. As the stroke reaches the middle of the board, about even downward pressure should be applied by both toe and heel hands, and as the cut exits the far end, NO downward pressure at the toe, and full downward pressure at the heel end to keep the plane sole parallel with the board.

That's not an easy thing to do at first, but concentrate on it, and it quite quickly becomes second nature. You do it without thinking about it.

It has nothing whatever to do with cap-iron settings.

Edit to add;

Actually, that's only half the story. The FIRST thing to do on planing a face or an edge is to identify and plane off any high spots. If a board has a crown in the middle, plane that off first to get the board pretty well flat, or even very slightly hollow. THEN use the method above; if you try to do so with the crown still there, you'll never get rid of it.

 

[Ttrees]

T

It has nothing whatever to do with cap-iron settings.

This is great fun (hammer)
Whether the cap has involvement on this has to me, yet to be discovered ...
It is only a blade that the cap can have influence on that were talking about .
Any more camber than a hair and this all goes to pot
If you've ever experienced tearout with the blade profile, you have to much camber, and cannot achieve this technique
and have to adhere to other techniques

This occurrence has nothing to do with technique really, like nothing to do with spreading weight or anything like that.
Through shavings all the way

Tom

 

[D_W]

To avoid dubbing the ends of a board, apply pressure to the toe and heel of the plane appropriately. At the start of the cut, place the plane with its toe on the board, and use full weight on the toe to press the plane down - apply NO downward pressure with the heel hand, just forward push. As the stroke reaches the middle of the board, about even downward pressure should be applied by both toe and heel hands, and as the cut exits the far end, NO downward pressure at the toe, and full downward pressure at the heel end to keep the plane sole parallel with the board.

That's not an easy thing to do at first, but concentrate on it, and it quite quickly becomes second nature. You do it without thinking about it.

It has nothing whatever to do with cap-iron settings.

Edit to add;

Actually, that's only half the story. The FIRST thing to do on planing a face or an edge is to identify and plane off any high spots. If a board has a crown in the middle, plane that off first to get the board pretty well flat, or even very slightly hollow. THEN use the method above; if you try to do so with the crown still there, you'll never get rid of it.

Planing the high spots off is first in any planing regimen - which doesn't involve long through strokes. It involves finding the high spots and then removing them before moving to the next. If the high spots aren't easily identified by eye, run a long plane over a board, find them, and decide whether or not the plane in your hand can remove them quickly enough. If you couldn't see them, and you have a try plane in your hand, it probably does. If you can see them and they are significant, you probably shouldn't have a try plane in your hand in the first place. Once they're removed, what's left should be planed by through strokes. No straight edges or squares to do any of this, just eye and feel - and no straight edge or square until you're just about complete with the fine part of the work.

As to whether or not the cap iron has anything to do with actually executing this, it most certainly does, at least if you want it to be efficient. It makes sure that every shaving is consistent thickness from start to finish, even in grain with runout or where it's completely reversing. The efficiency of actually getting a constant thickness cut from end to end regardless of the wood cannot be understated. It also tells you when you've gone far enough in that the entire shaving has no breaks in it (which you'll still have after jack work unless you're only planing downgrain, but even the jack ridges will cause a shaving to be broken). There's no reason to move on until the shaving is continuous and unbroken or at least unbroken to a point that two passes with a smoother will finish off the job.

These are the kinds of things that apprentices probably knew 200 years ago just from sensibility (and human nature laziness to get a job done without wasting effort). Even if you can't see high spots in a board, you can feel them when they're only a few hundredths. But you can't feel them the first time you plane - it takes a bit of practice. You also might be in the crowd of folks who doesn't believe the cap iron makes a difference in any of this, but history would suggest otherwise given that it eliminated single iron planes and lightened the wallet by more at the same time (if it was pointless, nobody would've bought it when money counted like it did 200 years ago).

The mechanical principle of this is the same regardless of the plane (where the pressure is at each end of the cut), but the execution of it relies on a cap iron or a high pitch. If you decide to use high pitch instead of a cap iron, and you're still at the "high spots" part of the work, you're torturing yourself. If you use high pitch only for the fine work on an edge, no problem. if you then turn and use it on the face of the board, you're again, torturing yourself. All of this ties together, but until you intentionally get good and efficient at rough work (which is derided by most of the gurus now, as well as forum trolls), it's not going to be well understood.

 

[patrickjchase]

This thread is a little garbled, so my apology if I duplicate another response.

JohnPW
Snipe as in occurrences with a surfacer machine ie ..
A sniped end of timber will not be proud and sit on edge.

When you get "snipe" with a handplane it's generally caused by not shifting weight from toe to heel through the stroke.

At the start of the stroke only the plane's toe is on the wood, so you need to put most of your pressure there. If you have too much downward pressure on the tote/heel then the plane will tend to take a deeper cut at the start of the stroke, leading to leading-edge "snipe". This is particularly of concern when working with an open-sided rabbet plane like the 10-1/2 or the bevel-up rabbets, since you don't have sole extending alongside the iron to limit depth of cut in those.

Similarly, at end of stroke only the plane's heel is on the wood, so you need to keep most of your pressure on the tote rather than the knob.

 

[Ttrees]

Patrick, and the ney sayers...
Is David's video not proof enough for you?

It has nothing to do with leaning or anything, as a very strong child could do the same.
Through shavings all the way, no stop shavings.

I've proved to myself, and to those who understand what I'm talking about, as evident from the picture,
that I cant achieve the same thing without the cap iron tight...
(thank you David for clarifying this, as I wasn't sure if it was the iron profile, or the cap iron's influence)

If I want to joint the timber to an highly acceptable manner using a plane, with more than say, two hairs of a camber,
I will have to go back to using stop shavings
I dont bother with leaning anymore than I would normally do to make the plane work well.
It has nothing to do with that.

I cant wait to observe more when I can have more of a 100% test setting
Thanks for making that video David

Tom

 

[patrickjchase]

Patrick, and the ney sayers...
Is David's video not proof enough for you?

It has nothing to do with leaning or anything, as a very strong child could do the same.
Through shavings all the way, no stop shavings.

Ttrees, can you not read?

I didn't say anything about stop shavings. I said to shift pressure through the shaving. It's done as one continuous motion. I'm 99.9% sure that David does so (and has said as much in the past).

 

[Ttrees]

Yes and that picture of the "snipe" or better said systematic fault...is what occurs,
when I try and plane, using only through shavings, no matter how much I lean on the toe to start the cut,
and then on the heel to finish.
It will result in a problem, unlike what happens when I plane with the cap iron set to have infulence
I dont have to lean and can continue not worrying about it.
If anything I'm getting the opposite effect like David has mentioned, proud on the ends instead.

Before Davids bench video, I was wondering if my unsupported bench as flexing at the ends, thus causing this problem.
I am planing 3" plus iroko and it is not flexing too much to cause issues, but with thinner stuff it might pose a problem.

Tom

 

[JohnPW]

To avoid dubbing the ends of a board, apply pressure to the toe and heel of the plane appropriately. At the start of the cut, place the plane with its toe on the board, and use full weight on the toe to press the plane down - apply NO downward pressure with the heel hand, just forward push. As the stroke reaches the middle of the board, about even downward pressure should be applied by both toe and heel hands, and as the cut exits the far end, NO downward pressure at the toe, and full downward pressure at the heel end to keep the plane sole parallel with the board.

That's not an easy thing to do at first, but concentrate on it, and it quite quickly becomes second nature. You do it without thinking about it.

It has nothing whatever to do with cap-iron settings.

Edit to add;

Actually, that's only half the story. The FIRST thing to do on planing a face or an edge is to identify and plane off any high spots. If a board has a crown in the middle, plane that off first to get the board pretty well flat, or even very slightly hollow. THEN use the method above; if you try to do so with the crown still there, you'll never get rid of it.

As to whether or not the cap iron has anything to do with actually executing this, it most certainly does,

I would say they (the technique of moving the plane and cap iron setting) are two separate things.

Someone could move the plane correctly using a single iron plane and get a flat surface.

 

[Ttrees]

Not with 100% through shavings, and get the result shown,
using an Bailey no 5 1/2 or other 45 degree bedding angle plane a similar length, with just a regular sensibly honed bevel
somewhere in the low end of a 30 deg spectrum.

Tom

 

[D_W]

I didn't say anything about stop shavings. I said to shift pressure through the shaving. It's done as one continuous motion. I'm 99.9% sure that David does so (and has said as much in the past).

I'm sure I do - but it's not as conscious as it used to be, it's just part of the stroke. I'm sure everyone with a lot of experience does. At some point, I'm going to make a video on efficient planing in general. I'm sure there are people who could work me under the table in an 8 hour planing session, but there are things that people don't do that make the task a lot easier and that just take a little bit of repetition to make habit.

Most people don't care - sort of like the plane thread here - we should just be enthusiastic instead, I guess. But doing something well is certainly *satisfying*.

Ttrees is partially correct, though. Setting the cap iron is important because unless you have perfect wood, you can adjust pressure, etc, but an area of a board with runout, reversing grain, etc, will not be removed consistently if the shaving comes apart.

 

[D_W]

As to whether or not the cap iron has anything to do with actually executing this, it most certainly does,

I would say they (the technique of moving the plane and cap iron setting) are two separate things.

Someone could move the plane correctly using a single iron plane and get a flat surface.

Sort of. If you have ideal wood and you're planing with the grain, it's not going to make a difference. On anything less than perfect, the cap iron is going to help immensely just by the fact that it keeps the plane in the cut much better. Until you do it both ways, you'll never see the difference. Everything in planing is easier when the middle work is done with the cap iron set properly. Once in a great while, it's necessary on the jack plane, too (if you have little to work with between final thickness and rough, or if you are jack planing something like quartered curly cherry that has extremely weak earlywood).

It's not the concept that is different (in moving the plane) with or without cap iron, it's the actual execution. It's easy with the cap set and it depends on nothing other than you being awake and using the plane in a relatively appropriate manner.

 

[Ttrees]

My findings would disagree with your statement David, as that piece of iroko pictured was quite
easy to plane
I made an attempt to try to scoop the middle when taking these through shavings with no avail
still getting snipe.

If I was to describe the difference, I would say the it is that the cap iron setting plane
stays in the cut on its own
The cambered plane wants to pull out of the cut, but gets deeper when pushed into it.

However this is not about shifting weight, Its what happens with anyone who tries it, the results will be the same.

It is a most superior method

 

[D_W]

You're right about the cap iron keeping the plane in the cut. It takes less downforce in a given dullness cycle to keep a plane with a cap iron in the cut vs. a single iron plane. I could be wrong because of that. I've kind of gone the way of the cap and never looked back to single iron, but I do remember having to sharpen much more often using a single iron wooden plane with a 50 degree iron. it was a fairly soft iron (an early 1800s butcher), but both my jack and try planes also have soft irons. Because of the difference in downforce with both setups, the plane with a cap will behave like it's sharp for a lot longer, which results in less sharpening (admittedly, taking the assembly apart does take some extra time, but the actual time planing is probably 2 units of time for every 3 with a single iron plane, maybe less depending on the wood - so it's well worth it.

Kees actually made a machine to test this, but I can't remember which angles he tried.

I've had underlying discussions like this with Brian Holcombe, but he doesn't really need anyone to discuss anything with him - he's a far better woodworker than I am. It was of interest, though, because I sent him a Sheffield iron of relatively recent manufacture and told him to resist looking at the iron and sharpening early - do it only when the plane no longer stays in the cut without downward influence. He found the same thing, that he could see (with the naked eye) the wear bevel on said softer iron on a try plane and continue to plane for a while. He took all of the cap iron talk and ran with it to the point that he now needs to go back toward machines to keep up with demand for his furniture (and that's a great thing). His hand planed furniture is excruciatingly accurate and has superb planed surfaces.