How flat is your bench, musings on thicknessing , techniques

[nabs]

something I learned watching the English Woodworker videos was how a flat bench top can be used to speed up preparing boards.

He removes the obvious high points and twist by eye (using the edge of the sole of the plane to check for flatness). After that he places the board face down on the bench and attempts to rocks the board corner-to-corner to detect any final twist.

It is quick and convenient as you do not have to stop to find/pickup winding sticks or a straight edge.

A good argument for having at least a part of the bench top flattish.

 

[Jacob]

something I learned watching the English Woodworker videos was how a flat bench top can be used to speed up preparing boards.

He removes the obvious high points and twist by eye (using the edge of the sole of the plane to check for flatness). After that he places the board face down on the bench and attempts to rocks the board corner-to-corner to detect any final twist.

It is quick and convenient as you do not have to stop to find/pickup winding sticks or a straight edge.

Is that where the idea originated?
Sounds more like slowing down than speeding up! You have to turn the board, make sure the bench is still flat and free of shavings etc and all it'll show is that one corner is (or is not) higher than the other three and/or that it's not flat and is rocking about on high points. You should be able to see this. It won't show cups, bends etc - you have to do this by "looking" at it :lol:

A good argument for having at least a part of the bench top flattish.

Flatt ish would not be good enough as a metal workers reference plate but perfectly OK for a woodworker using his eyesight as reference.

 

[nabs]

I am not sure Maquire claims to have invented the idea

He does 99% of the work by eye, just the final check for any (hard to see) twist left over is done on the bench top. Mind you, It is true that you have to sweep/blow the shavings off first and it would not be up to scratch for engineers. Still, it is very quick and easy - you should give it a go!

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Hi Tom, I've been reading your posts on this thread and the other one you link to and am trying to unpick what you are saying. I may have misunderstood you but if I read your posts correctly here are a few comments that may assist.
!. Tolerances. All making, woodworking or engineering require an understanding of the tolerances for the work. In the other thread you talk about a 12 foot bench being convex by one thou. This is meaningless and unmeasureable. You would have to spend a great deal of money on a 3 foot straight edge that is better than one thou along it's length and then have to store it under ideal conditions in a soft case. I have never even heard of a 12 foot straight edge that claims to be accurate to one thou, even in engineering workshops, maybe BAE Systems have one. If a wood work bench was flat to 20 thou (0,5mm) over 12 foot this would be a very flat workbench, probably the flattest wood work bench in England.
2. Laminations. When you make a table top out of one foot wide boards there is very little flex across the width of the board (although there is still some). These edges need to match to a pretty good tolerance, although a few thou is still acceptable, indeed a few thou in concavity is advantageous and will close up fine with clamping. However it seems the laminations yo are talking about are for your workbench and are roughly 2" wide. There is no need to try and perfectly match plane these pieces as they will be flexible. As long as the pieces are smooth and square and not too bent then the clamps will close up any gaps fine.
3. Terminology. "Snipe" is not a thing with hand planes, it describes a phenomona that you encounter with planers and thicknessers.
4. I think you may benefit from biting the bullet and watching Paul Sellers make his bench, less for spinets of information and more for working techniques and understanding of what is and isn't important. Some people find Sellers annoying to watch, if this is the case try Richarn MaGuire (you have to pay for this content, but it is probably worth it, I haven't seen it bur I have watched some of his free content and he seems very capable). I would strongly suggest that you copy one of their techniques to the letter, at this stage just accept that they know what they are doing and do the same. For example if they check flatness with the edge of a bench plane and winding sticks just copy what they do and don't devise your own tests. Violin makers use a reference plate to check the flatness of of some components, bench makers do not, use the appropriate methods for the job in hand. You can't reinvent the wheel until you are a master wheelwright.
5. Different bench planes. The different bench planes have different uses, but essentially they all work te same and anything can be done with one plane. If something is not working with a 51/2 changing to a 6 is not going to solve it. Custard has posted before that when training at the Barnsley workshop they only used a no 7, Paul Sellers makes plenty of stuff using only a no.4. This seems to work fine for both of them.
6. Feel free to ignore all te advise above .
Paddy

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I'd be planing thin boards on a "planing board" - piece of 18mm ply or similar, sitting on the bench against a stop, perhaps with 2mm stops on the planing board itself, all around to hold it - and yes, as a "reference" !

You can make a 'planing board' by planing the top surface of your bench flat, straight and out of wind.

How flat, straight and out of wind? As accurate as the components you wish to make on it. For a luthier dealing with very thin, wide components, that could be 'straightedge' flat, because the parts are so thin they'll flex a lot under the tools as you work it, taking up the shape of the surface that's supporting them, and springing back after the tools have passed over. If the surface that's supporting them is flat, there's a much better chance of being able to plane them flat.

I can see how a planing board would be useful if you don't have a bench, but if you do, keep it in good enough order to do the work you want.

PS - Paddy's got it spot-on.

 

[Jacob]

I'd be planing thin boards on a "planing board" - piece of 18mm ply or similar, sitting on the bench against a stop, perhaps with 2mm stops on the planing board itself, all around to hold it - and yes, as a "reference" !

You can make a 'planing board' by planing the top surface of your bench flat, straight and out of wind.

Mines a trad bench with a well. It's good for almost everything.
A "planing board" is just for things like the OPs instrument tops, and a piece of good quality ply off the shelf is all you need. I'd be inclined to use it even if I had a perfect bench because you can pin stops to it, turn it around without lifting the workpiece and so on. Also handy for multiples because you can keep it set up. Also good for sanding - drape cloth over it to protect the underside from getting marked by contact with the board, and so on.
If I really needed a "reference surface" I'd be inclined to set one up for the purpose and not use it for anything else - least of all the battering that a well used bench is likely to undergo.

 

[nabs]

Since you don't need to make the whole bench top flat to use it for the purposes mentioned above - just the small area you typically work on - then there can't be much difference in initial effort whether using the top directly or making a separate board.

I'd say there are pros and cons to both options longer term - on the one hand a separate board means you don't need to worry about keeping (part) of your bench relatively flat, on the other you have to store/find a separate board for certain tasks. I suppose the benefits vary according to how much hand prepping/thin stock work you do too.

 

[JohnPW]

A separate board has the advantage it will not get the wear and tear that a bench top will get.

 

[nabs]

yes I think that is the key - someone like Richard Maquire who uses the flat surface on his bench to speed up his timber prep (and does all his prep with hand tools) no doubt regards the effort of flattening the top every now and then as worth while, but if you needed it infrequently it would probably make more sense to have a separate board that did not require regular maintenance.

 

[Ttrees]

I should note that this bench will be for fine stuff and mollycoddled, which it has to be, to work on spruce or cedar, and I will be whipping up another bench for regular work, as I do reclaim quite a bit of stuff with glass, cement, putty, nails in it.
The surface will be smooth enough to blow away any dirt or scrape it off with a timber as I do now.

I wish to have the whole bench this long, because there's always the possibility of harp soundboards and the like being worked on.
I dont use papers or feelers, although I found the rubbing technique useful for a high spot in wider stuff before, when I was starting.
This can be made more evident with crayons if one starting was afraid of removing too much stock.

I can either hear or feel the timber rocking, pivoting noise, and only when I'm getting close I look at it.
In extreme cases you can see the light underneath the timber without bending down.

Just for the fun of it
I had toyed with the idea of placing a mirror in the tool well position, so I needed not bend around to check the work
This would be for the very last passes before a lamination
Saves me getting a dusty head and all that (another reason for the smooth easier to clean bench)

I know a lot of you guys are mentioning other folks, but I've seen them all nearly, and it is not suitable material for me.
Not paying for Richards content, because it aint free, and prob aint focused at me judging by the freebies ...

I could follow other well known folks instructions, but I dont want gaps like I can see in most videos
and it takes them some time to do what I would do because those folks are catering for starters,
and not using a proper bench, and generally doing silly things all the time.

Tom

 

[MusicMan]

There are lots of vague statements going about, such as "flattish" and "dead flat". The advantage of a "flat enough" bench is to my mind not so much in planing - plenty of ways round that, as observed - but in assembly, to ensure that the assembly does not rock or wobble or look out of square. This is not engineering metrology flatness (and I did that in another life), but, say, as flat as a normal wooden floor or a sheet of MDF. Not nearly as good as 1 thou but maybe about 10 thou (0.25 mm) over 1 metre. Jacob's eye would do that.

Regarding the soundboard planing, indeed a planing board is the answer. You can make it with suitable bits to hold the board and as they are usually wedge-shaped they just need tapping in. The picture below shows me using such a board for a small harp. It is plywood, stiffened on the underside by fairly stout timbers. The are, incidentally, on a wedge pattern the matches the harp, so the whole soundbox can be wedged in and worked on when the planing board is turned over.

This is a small harp but I would use the same system for a large one. Of course, a thin soundboard conforms to both the planing board and to the supports of the soundbox. I'd just want to ensure that the overall shape was flat (not concave or convex overall) but would not worry about local waviness at the few thou level.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

How flat is your bench? That's rather like asking how sharp is your chisel, how heavy is your mallet, how fine is your saw, etc. - most people have benches that are flat enough for the work they do, likewise chisels sharp enough, saws fine enough, mallets heavy enough and so on.
A bit pointless really, unless you're asking for specific advice ... which means that's the wrong question.

 

[Ttrees]

What is this then if it is not snipe ?
I think its a good description of it, and the word snipe probably has been around before machines
I must look it up

Has anyone done these experiments I was referring to
I find it fascinating the fact that the occurrence of snipe (or whatever you choose to call it) does not seem to be
prevalent with an iron that the cap can have full influence on.

Tom

 

[Jacob]

What is this then if it is not snipe ?
I think its a good description of it, and the word snipe probably has been around before machines
I must look it up

Has anyone done these experiments I was referring to
I find it fascinating the fact that the occurrence of snipe (or whatever you choose to call it) does not seem to be
prevalent with an iron that the cap can have full influence on.

Tom

Snipe is due to a systematic fault in the set up of your planing machine.
What you have is clumsy planing - a systematic fault in your technique, for which you can't blame the tool.

 

[Ttrees]

Very well said Jacob
Systematic fault sums up a lot of things in craft.
If I'm not mistaken I think snipe on a planing machine can be described as a systematic fault also, as I've understood snipe can be
taken out of the equation with some techniques like putting things through a continuous run.
This is the hand tools forum though so I wont go into the little I know about that.

The occurrence is still prevalent and quite interesting that the iron profiles make this much of a difference in use
I cant wait to do some more tests when I build this bench

Tom

 

[Phil Pascoe]

... and the word snipe probably has been around before machines
I must look it up
Tom

A small fen fowl with a long beak, a fool or a blockhead. S. Johnson, 1755.

 

[D_W]

Very well said Jacob
Systematic fault sums up a lot of things in craft.
If I'm not mistaken I think snipe on a planing machine can be described as a systematic fault also, as I've understood snipe can be
taken out of the equation with some techniques like putting things through a continuous run.
This is the hand tools forum though so I wont go into the little I know about that.

The occurrence is still prevalent and quite interesting that the iron profiles make this much of a difference in use
I cant wait to do some more tests when I build this bench

Tom

I think the cap iron makes that "snipe" easier to avoid simply because you never get into a situation where the shaving thickness varies due to poor cut quality.

I haven't planed wood without using the cap iron in one way or another in years, so I have no clue why most people seem to experience it and I and several others do not. Repetition might be part of it, but in simple terms, if the thickness of a shaving removed is constant from end to end on a board, removing a set of shavings should not threaten the flatness of the board (and, it does not). As I showed in the video, if you lean on a plane a little bit in the middle of a through shaving, you can actually cut a board hollow to the extent that the plane sole allows (not much, but enough for a sprung joint).

The fact that you can plane without running the ends off of a board would suggest to me that it's something to be practiced out for people who have trouble with it. That way, you can achieve flatness and squareness at the same time when you're jointing a board, and not threaten one while correcting the other.

I understand how it happens on a planer once a board escapes from the front roller, and why a good quality planer should not do it if a board is fully supported on the outfeed after it's gone past the front roller. The fact that it still happens on a lot of good planers is probably due to wear, cost (in not making a machine tight) or poor outfeed support.

 

[custard]

Many hobbyists struggle to start a hand plane stroke correctly, they don't apply sufficient pressure at the toe before commencing the cut. Consequently the first inch or so of the board generally gets massacred.

Life's a little bit easier with a number five plane or longer, because there's a longer sole section ahead of the cutting edge to reference from, but even then most newbies don't get it right and therefore are unable to accurately flatten a face or joint an edge.

 

[bugbear]

Many hobbyists struggle to start a hand plane stroke correctly, they don't apply sufficient pressure at the toe before commencing the cut. Consequently the first inch or so of the board generally gets massacred.

Life's a little bit easier with a number five plane or longer, because there's a longer sole section ahead of the cutting edge to reference from, but even then most newbies don't get it right and therefore are unable to accurately flatten a face or joint an edge.

The famous "dubbing of the ends". Lots of books (helpfully) tell you to avoid it.

BugBear

 

[Ttrees]

The famous "dubbing of the ends". Lots of books (helpfully) tell you to avoid it.

BugBear

Yes they might, but not in the best way as in David W's videos it seems.
Or If they can, they cant explain it well enough to be clear about it.
I personally think they weren't in the know if they did not explain the cap iron, and the fact that dubbing the ends does not occur
with the setting I'm on about
You should try it

Tom