How flat is your bench, musings on thicknessing , techniques

[Ttrees]

Hello folks
I kind of brushed on this subject before, but feel as I had not got to the bottom of things, so now I can give you
a more real life instance perspective now, since I'm close to laminating a lot of timbers.

This thread hints at a few different topics, I am happy to hear any of them, or anything else what comes along

So I may as well take it up as everybodys up to speed with the cap iron.
I'm keen to discuss some more talk on the use of a plane set up like this, as I have been relying on the camber for too long.

Having only joined two components together before, multiple laminations on the bench base shown, I have seen some of the
other issues that would be encountered on "the other side" ...
One being. that you're not to follow the gauged line exactly, as in, not plane down to the line on the ends of the timbers
as the timber will be crooked if you do,
because the first face has a slight hollow in the middle, so it sits stable on the bench with no pivoting, or rocking.
I might make a pencil gauge in future for this.

David W
I'm trying to emulate what you are seemingly achieving ...
No plane snipe on a heavyish set plane ??
I have not experienced this yet.
And seemingly the opposite effect is evident with very light shavings, with a slight hollow to be spot planed of the ends.

Does your timber sit with no gaps if you orientate it the other direction ?
I have failed to achieve this so far...
I noticed you mention you did not make a case for grain direction
Nor have I to worry now either about that now, but I still need to orientate/stack/prepare the timbers, the same
careful way as before, because of the timber sitting not quite as flat if swapping end for end.

My base could have been out, thinking this while surfacing 4 sides ...or should I say S4S2 (2 is the repeat )
I have since shimmed one leg since only 0.9mm after finally checking for wind in the bench. which I omitted beforehand.
I used two S4S timbers the entire length of the bench(nearly)
The saw was in the way so I settled on the one end and close enough to the other end ...hoping the extra length will account for the
lack of placing one of these "winding sticks" to the end.

I am not sure if I will perfectly re-shim the top in the middle because the top will flex on the unsupported ends anyway.
So I suppose I cant try to fully replicate your techniques David W until I work on shorter stock
I may well shim the bench perfectly by then, or just hang on till I make this top

I had not realised how beefy your bench top was....It doesn't look like it will flex much :lol:

Cant wait to try those techniques properly

Tom

 

[Brandlin]

sorry, but i really don't have a clue what you are asking as your post is quite garbled and i *think* presumes that i have followed some other thread of yours?

 

[Ttrees]

sorry, but i really don't have a clue what you are asking as your post is quite garbled and i *think* presumes that i have followed some other thread of yours?

Yes its Referring to another thread, probably a few...
the point I got out the thread is David W's bench doesn't flex at around 4 and something inches thick ash.

a-planing-question-t106542.html?hilit=flat%20bench&start=90

The video I'm talking about is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHV9kdY ... e=youtu.be

I'm interested to see how flat your benches is
I'm not sure if there's any point of shimming mine as the ends will flex anyway with my thin bench top.
Hopefully that will clear up my gibberish #-o

Tom

 

[AndyT]

If you are bothered about the top flexing, just add another support. There's no law that a bench can only have two pairs of supports. Mine has four supports - two softwood frames and two bits of blockboard. The top is from nominal 3" softwood, so probably only about 2 1/2" thick. Plenty sturdy enough.

 

[Ttrees]

I think I can just about get away with it, as I'm only taking very thin shavings off.
If it becomes problematic I will, but I think I can manage as its only when I'm planing that the
flex issue happens, so I can still use it for reference.

One possible question I'm asking is more directed at folks who use their surface for reference
Did they ever do this test?

Tom

 

[D_W]

Hi Tom - not sure if I'm answering the right questions, but:
* the bench does need to be flat. You could achieve flatness and some rigidity by adding jointed boards to the bottom of your bench top, glued on edge to it, and then boxing them with plywood (but that may not be necessary.
* are you laminating boards together to make a bench top? If so, I wouldn't worry too much about perfection in the pre-laminated board - get them in decent shape and glue them all together with generous amounts of glue and reasonable clamp pressure to make sure all of the joints are closed. Do your best to make the glued lamination reasonably flat, wipe off the excess glue, and then plane the entire laminated assembly after it's done.

FWIW, I planed the same way I did in the video above with a cheaper and much less rigid bench, but it was still a beech bench (one of the starter sjobergs bench) and relatively flat. The difference between it and mine, other than the weight and the much better vises now, is that you had to be cognizant of where you were chopping mortises over the legs, etc. I don't have to now, but I still chop them mostly over the legs out of habit, except for on planes.

When that discussion came up regarding rigidity, I don't remember the details, but I think i was probably somewhere on the side of it not mattering much in planes, because only low toes on a plane sole is problematic. Anything else, we can work with through shavings and achieve a flat board, regardless of the number of shavings taken. I realize that's been the point of some contention, but I could teach it in person without much problem and I think it's a good habit to learn if you're dimensioning by hand (but it does require a well supported board to do it mindlessly).

(I haven't planed with that plane in the video in a while - it's a delight. Unmarked casting and ironmonger lever cap that someone put together in the UK with a rosewood infill and nobody in the UK thought it was worth 150 pounds. I think I will get it out tonight and do some dimensioning. Not that it matters which plane you're using, an inexpensive bailey will do the same).

Re: how the boards sit on my bench. They're flat, they sit on the bench flat regardless of how they're turned because the bench is also flat. Anything that can flex is always done on the bench top (long edges on narrow boards, etc). The only exception to flatness is if I'm being a little bit lazy and I have a corner that's a little low or high and I leave it until post-assembly to finish truing, or perhaps something like a drawer front where a corner falling off a hundredth or something and not quite finished will be taken care of after cutting the stock to size.

If I didn't answer the right questions, let me know.

 

[Ttrees]

Thanks David
Nice to know your stock is dead flat if turned around
I think I have a habit of leaning the plane towards myself, even while being mindful of it.
I as toying with the idea of skewing the no.5 1/2 to counter this.

What I have noticed is I can plane without snipe now with the cap iron setting, or an iron that the cap can be set on.
I have not pulled it back to try heavier shavings.
On the fence whether I should put even less camber on the other 5 1/2.
I may have more questions when I have a more solid bench to test on.


Thanks

Tom

 

[D_W]

If you have a habit of leaving the near end jointed toward you, I'd just start the plane with the board feeding through a bit left of center and then work toward the center of the board as you plane its length. Just the bias of the plane leaning over the right a little bit will fix the issue to some extent. Check feeding from left to right, of course, to make sure the plane is feeding evenly across the width of the iron, or at least as the camber allows (hopefully you're planing with a little bit of camber).

 

[JohnPW]

I also found it hard to understand the first post.

"Snipe" means tearout?
To "shim" something means checking for flatness/straight?

 

[D_W]

By the way, i don't as a matter of habit take my front hand off of a plane as early as in the video. I must've been trying to make a point about bias in pressure when I made that video, or perhaps playing it really safe. I do plane (and I think most will) so that by the time the front of the plane crosses the end of a stick, i'm near the end of my stroke and leaning on the back of the plane and not the front.

I know David C advocates a more rigid planing posture, but that rigidity may be what makes certain subtleties (that you come upon just out of laziness) hard to get right. I don't doubt his methods are more reliable for a person new to the sport, though.

 

[Ttrees]

I suspect it may be the involvement of the cap, either that or the fact that the iron needs to be straighter, or the
differences to your technique needing to be more aware of the flatter iron.
Yes I do have just a hair of camber on my plane.
Have to do this freehand too, as the honing guide is kaput and it will not hone a flat bevel.

JohnPW
Snipe as in occurrences with a surfacer machine ie ..
A sniped end of timber will not be proud and sit on edge.

No such thing as tearout when the cap iron is involved

An shimming refers to the bench top
On the first piccys you will see timbers supporting (nearly) the sag in the bench top
It may need to be shimmed.
I tried making a timber spring in the other photo, but felt like I was getting twist

Tom

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Here's Paul Sellers making a laminated bench top. In the first video, he just cleans off any machine marks from the faces of the timber he's going to glue together, and glues up;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru2ZiNs_Wek

In the second, he planes flat the underside of the resulting laminated slab;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lemsx2_ArnQ

At a later stage, after assembling the bench, he'll finish by planing the top surface flat, straight and true.

 

[D_W]

I didn't joint any of the wood that I put in my bench top, either, at least not after the first couple of boards (which I worked by hand, but then decided I wanted the bench to be done faster so I could get back to things that you do on it rather than building it).

I did run my boards through a thickness planer to make sure that they were even thickness with no voids, and then allowed the clamps to make them straight to the glue.

After a few years of being held straight, they're probably not full of tension since they're glued in their weakest orientation, anyway. I wouldn't waste time or wood jointing them to perfection. They wouldn't even need to be identically thick end to end (but it's nice if they are).

 

[Jacob]

It helps to have a flattish workbench but not essential in any super precise way. The main thing is to have the workpiece supported so that pressure doesn't bend or rock it, and an end stop or bench hooks to hold it - depending on what you are doing. If it's really bad (the wood or the bench top) use a bit of packing and/or wedges

 

[Ttrees]

Jacob
Never will I see how having a non super accurate bench, is not time saving and less effort.
Every time I watch someone do so without a reference, it looks a whole load of hassle, and I'd like to see those
pieces rock all over the bench at my place.
Not saying it cant be done, but it will take longer.

I cant watch Mr Sellers do the basic building site stuff, sorry
I do watch his videos but skip through them to mainly find some useful snippet of something, hopefully.

I could end up shimming the thing better yet, and bracing the ends at the same time, perfectly flattening those door rails underneath, and
swapping the thinner ones out for thicker flattened door rail stock...
which is in a stack currently being used to hold temporary bench 2 up, that has the lengths for this Klausz style bench
It wont be long before things are coming together

Tom

 

[Jacob]

Can't say I've ever done hand planing with a "reference" - except basically eyeball for straight length, and twist, check the width with a straight edge - usually the plane on edge or a combi square ruler.
Not even quite sure what you mean - is it some sort of engineering idea?
I mostly machine plane but I've done stuff too long for the machine by hand - using winding sticks sometimes. Get two faces flat and square by hand, then bung it through the thicknesser.
Flatness of the bench doesn't come into it at any point (within reason) even if I was doing it 100% by hand.

 

[Ttrees]

Thanks Jacob
I'm just trying to get the same invisible joint as I can do easier with the camber, but without the tearout.
At some stage I'm going to be making instruments on this bench to be made, planing sub 2mm soundboards, so it needs to be accurate.
You cant detect by eye anything this long, but on these long bench timbers, its not so perfect,
well good enough to glue though, but could be better

Tom

 

[Jacob]

....
At some stage I'm going to be making instruments on this bench to be made, planing sub 2mm soundboards, so it needs to be accurate.
You cant detect by eye anything this long, ...

I think you can!
I'd be planing thin boards on a "planing board" - piece of 18mm ply or similar, sitting on the bench against a stop, perhaps with 2mm stops on the planing board itself, all around to hold it - and yes, as a "reference" !

ps if edge jointing you match one edge against the other - doesn't matter if they are not perfectly straight as long as they fit

 

[Ttrees]

I have never seen quality ply that you could do that with Jacob, and I've seen plenty of skips

Maybe that would be possible with my no.8 to use a stop, but I will be planing directly on the bench and have some sort
of clamp of holdfast so I plane away form the clamped timber only.

Onto the edge jointing
I have a load of laminations to do and I wasn't planning to have to surface every second piece, thats basically
my argument for having reference

I would need cigarette papers to check anything the length which I would be working on less than 4 foot to start with.
or do the rub test

Tom

 

[Jacob]

Sorry Tom but I really think you have got the wrong end of the stick about how to do woodwork.
There is no place here for reference surfaces, cigarette papers or feeler gauges - you've got your wires crossed with metal work and engineering!