How do you make profiled edges on table top's?

[Anonymous]

Good day to all you happy woodworking people
Can any body give me a few pointers please?
I havent a clue how they made shaped edge's on tables etc traditionally. As far as I know a moulding plane only goes straight along?? Did they have curved moulding planes? Or were the shaps carved? I'm thinking of when you see the mahogany or elm/oak little tripod tables, usually a round top or square with large radiuos corner, and they have fancy profiles to the edge. I know a little about scratch stock's but I think they will only do quite smal shapes?
Yes I hear some of you say "use a router" I'm not averse to them for certain jobs, but not where I'm trying to get a particular type of finish with a distinctive character :lol:
I'd look at alburnam's but it seems to have deceased
Thanks for any help you could offer, Cheers Jonathan

 

[Scrit]

Carraige makers used forms of router/spokeshave-like tools such as the pistol router and side router to put rebates and profiles on curved edges - and even resorted to a special variable curve fence plough plane, the Falconer plough, to work curved edges. There is another example of the coachmaker's plough here. If you hog off most of the waste on an edge that way then it seems to me that any profile could be readily worked with a scratch stock or modified old woman's tongue

Ed. Preston even went so far as to make cast-iron moulding tools with curved fences (e.g. the #1393P patent adjustable hand reeder and moulding tool) as did Stanley with their #66 and #67 beaders. Preston's also eventually made a small range of "improved circular" bead, common ovoloe (their spelling) and square ovoloe routers in various sizes (which were actually a special form of spokeshave designed to work curves such as glazing bars), with Alex. Mathieson copying the idea as well (although that could have been Preston's copying Mathiesons....). I can't recall seeing a wooden tool of that type. So perhaps your answer lies there - that woodworkers made their own tools or in the mid- to late-Victorian period bought one of Preston's or Stanley's "iron wonders" for what was inevitable not the commonest of jobs.

Out of interest there are some photographs of a circular ovolo router being used here

Hope that gives you some ideas - or you could always buy a flat-belt drive spindle moulder and a small steam engine. After all they were exhibited at the Great Exposition of 1851 so had presumably been in use for a while before that. :wink:

Scrit

 

[Alf]

I'm probably way off the mark, but I always assumed the small round tripod tables were turned and then carved as required? And I never underestimate what can be done with a scratchstock.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Scrit]

I'm probably way off the mark, but I always assumed the small round tripod tables were turned and then carved as required? And I never underestimate what can be done with a scratchstock.

I think you're right there - well I know you are because I've been to a repro manufacturing place and seen it being done that way (even the pie crusts were turned before going onto the copy roter and hand carved finishing) - I was thinking more about large oval tables and the kidney dresser shapes.

Robonson, Sagar, White, Wadkin, et al used to do a free standing tool holder so that up to 5ft diameter outboard turning could be done, but aren't lathes of that size a Victorian invention?

Scrit

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks scrit
The photo of the plane like a coopers one looks a promising idea.

Alfie
Do you think it feasible to assemble like the boards and the cleat under them and turn the whole thing (never even thought about the possibility of turning until you menton it, even the bodgers turned round seats and that on a pole lathe?) I think it unlikely I'd be using a whole board as in the old examples. My lathe only does about 12 inch's x 9 inch diamter between centres but can do much bigger outboard. Now you mention it it brings to mind a video I saw of an irish cabinet maker used his bandsaw as a lathe to turn a table top (large it was too, band saw and top!!) Had it clamped or screwed to one of the fly wheels :shock: Extremeley effective rsult though. I agree about the scratck stocks, I reckon they would be exellent to clean up if not to do the whole cut? Will they work good on mahogany? I have a board and thought I'd make a small tripod/pedestal table from it about 15 inch's diam and 24-26 inch's high, sliding dovetails etc

 

[Scrit]

I'm probably way off the mark, but I always assumed the small round tripod tables were turned and then carved as required

I've been thinking about this - yes, the traditional way to make pie crust tops was to turn then carve, but I was still wondering when it was that turned profiled edges, as opposed to the carved pie crust designs came in? I've seen small round tables with turned up profiled edges done in mahogany by Gillows (possibly Victorian, but the machine lathe was in limited use in manufacturing by 1802 - Portsmouth Naval Dockyard), but when did that style come into fashion? I'm also trying to imagine how anyone could turn a consistent profiled edge on a pole lathe - and failing dismally. And how did they turn cartwheels? Anyone know the answer?

Scrit

 

[garywayne]

Scrit.

I used to work in a seventeenth century village. In the village we had a couple of bodgers. Believe me, if you get a good bodger they can turn as good as anyone. I must admit, I have only seen them turn green wood though.

 

[Scrit]

Believe me, if you get a good bodger they can turn as good as anyone. I must admit, I have only seen them turn green wood though.

That's possibly the problem - I've yet to see anyoine who's any good at it!

Scrit

 

[Alf]

I'm also trying to imagine how anyone could turn a consistent profiled edge on a pole lathe - and failing dismally.

Possibly they didn't use a pole lathe? A great wheel lathe instead? Treadle?

And how did they turn cartwheels? Anyone know the answer?

That's an easy one, isn't it? You put one hand down like this, sort of kick up the opposite foot, put the other hand down in a sort of sideways handstand, by which time your other foot should... :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[promhandicam]

And how did they turn cartwheels? Anyone know the answer?
Scrit

I think you will find that Cartwheels were assembled and not turned. The following http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/yourplaceandmine/antrim/daveygeorge2.shtml gives a fairly good description: " . . .The outer rim of the wheel was made up of six wooden arcs called 'felloes' which slotted together, using carefully angled dowels, to make a perfectly circular wheel. The radius of the arc of these felloes had to be calculated very carefully and then marked out onto slabs of ash.Each felloe also had to have mortises cut into its inner surface to receive two spokes and the tenons on the spokes were carefully measured to make sure that the end did not touch the inside of the outer rim. When the felloes were fitted together, a gap equal to the thickness of the iron hoop was left between each felloe. Assembling all of the pieces together required a real 'knack' and the finished wheel was tapped gently together with a mallet. The iron hoop was also made in the shop so some smithying skills, as well as hard graft, were needed to complete the job. The hot iron was fitted to the wheel and as it cooled it drew the felloes neatly together, bonded with the ash and gave a hard-wearing edge to a wheel built to last."

 

[Anonymous]

Scrit, I am not certain that round chair seats were turned but bearing in mind the difficulty to earn a living on piece work, I treckon they found a way to turn them fast. Dont forget the wood is only doing maybe 100 rpm on a pole lathe, if that for a 16 inch disc, they maybe curl'd their fingers round the edge of the board like a sort of fence to suport the chisel as it made the cut, to follow the board even if it wasnt 100% flat?? Just guessing; I've seen lots of such seats and often wondered how twas done, some have very elegant fluting and such. Have you seen Robin Wood's work
http://www.robin-wood.co.uk/catframe.htm I'd say he was a good bodger especially the nests of bowls, they are done from seasoned wood (if he adopted George Laileys technique) 8)

 

[Anonymous]

Without a strip running around the edge in some way,,,,you'll have to think about cutting the profile crossgrain.

scratch tools,IMO, don't work well cross grain.

Without a powered router, the only clean way is by shaping a blade skewed. I do mine in planes like the stanley 55. Not a quick solution though if your not familiar with these planes.

You can just put a bevel on the top with a hand plane on the skew. But I find that a bit boring.

Maybe a more convienient option for you to just pick up the router... goodluck

 

[Scrit]

You can just put a bevel on the top with a hand plane on the skew.

Or as this is a hand tool thing a spoke shave or chamfer shave?

Maybe a more convienient option for you to just pick up the router... goodluck

Well, if I'd been doing it it would have been on the pin router by now and no mistake! Problem is they didn't have them until about 1920 or so....

Scrit

 

[Colin C]

I would use a scratch stock and it can be used on end grain but you have do it much slower than you would with the grain.

A guy I used to work with made his own scratch stock with fine adjustment and you used it for making some moulding for the top of a long case clock, with has the walnut back on some pine cut at 45 degrees.

So that when the walnut is moulded you dont see the pine.

This scratch stock was about 400m long and 150mm deep, it worked very well.
I hope that is clear

 

[Anonymous]

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[bugbear]

This is a wild guess but I bet you can work a straight moulding plane round a curve

But not concave curves, so you couldn't do a "kidney" shape.

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

I think you'd find a moulding plane wouldn't work well cross grain regardless of the profile, for most timbers.

Moulding planes tend to be square bedded. A profile that works off the edge has the square bedded blade naturally slicing against the grain. Its not a naturally clean cut.

hard going. In my opinion its not worth the risk. Better to fashion the blade skewed to deal with it better.

 

[Scrit]

Moulding planes tend to be square bedded. A profile that works off the edge has the square bedded blade naturally slicing against the grain. Its not a naturally clean cut.

The obvious and maybe not quite so common exceprtion is rounds and hollows which were often offered in square bedded or skewed

Scrit

 

[bugbear]

Moulding planes tend to be square bedded. A profile that works off the edge has the square bedded blade naturally slicing against the grain. Its not a naturally clean cut.

The obvious and maybe not quite so common exceprtion is rounds and hollows which were often offered in square bedded or skewed

Scrit

Not always a trivial choice though - the skew gives a superior cut across grain, BUT generates undesirable sideways forces.

When you trying to (e.g.) follow part of a linen fold panel, it's hard enough keeping the plane "on track" without having side forces to fight.

BugBear

 

[Alf]

A stunning argument for having a set of each, eh? :wink:

Cheers, Alf