Holdfasts

[DigitalM]

... but hobby woodworking isn't really great sense in itself.

That's a statement which I'll politely call "baffling". What on earth definition of "hobby" do have have in mind to say that?

BugBear

Sense in terms of fiscal sense and use of time.

I've never had anyone come to my house and look at anything that I've made and see more value in it than purchased furniture. My wife and I don't have crafty friends (they're doctors, product developers, etc, that part of their brain isn't turned on), so buying antique furniture and refinishing it would make far more sense than making case work, etc.

Somewhat baffled by this one myself.

I'm a "hobby" woodworker. My Dad was too, and I've inherited his gene for just wanting to make stuff to the best of my ability. Most people on this forum probably wouldn't rate anything I make, despite my being the best DIY dad of everyone I know.

I just love it, and wish I could do more of it. I get immense satisfaction out of the half-pineappled things I produce, and friends look upon them in total wonder, because they don't know any better!

 

[D_W]

Somewhat baffled by this one myself.

I'm a "hobby" woodworker. My Dad was too, and I've inherited his gene for just wanting to make stuff to the best of my ability. Most people on this forum probably wouldn't rate anything I make, despite my being the best DIY dad of everyone I know.

I just love it, and wish I could do more of it. I get immense satisfaction out of the half-pineappled things I produce, and friends look upon them in total wonder, because they don't know any better!

I think you guys are taking what I said and turning it in a different direction. What I meant was that you can't necessarily say you do something as a hobby woodworker and say it's reasonable and something else isn't, because we're not hobby woodworking for "reasonable" or economic reasons.

I don't make anything notable, either - it's not the bar that we're trying to get over, it's that it costs us economically to participate in this hobby in the first place, but we do it nonetheless. My bar when the bench isn't the end, but a means to it, is to not spend $50 making the holes on the underside (which should never contact anything in the first place) neat, and then having another set of bits that I don't need anywhere else floating around in my drill or bit drawers. I have seen benches that are practically furniture themselves.

I called Stewie out because he has a habit of casting aspersions at other peoples' work on grounds that make no sense. Who in the world would make a comment about not "working down to someone else's standard" regarding the bottom side of bench holes. Stewie has a history of casting stones at =:
* some of my comments, though not as often as:
* Derek's comments, even when Derek refuses to engage him, and despite Derek's more than fair treatment in return
* anything from lee valley, and perhaps that has something to do with derek reviewing a lot of their tools
* many of the boutique makers who make a living making their tools (I make tools to a reasonable standard, but never sell them for a profit, so I'm not in that group, but casting stones at guys making $300 saws while you're collecting a pension is in bad taste. )

I was just noting that while I'd call it reasonable practice to not waste too much time or money on the bottom holes of a bench, certainly one could conclude that the whole hobby is a waste of money. It's all on a sliding scale, and we're not exactly arguing about funding our retirements.

 

[DigitalM]

I think you guys are taking what I said and turning it in a different direction.

Sorry, didn't mean to, just started blabbering on about my own experience. No offence intended.

 

[memzey]

Somewhat baffled by this one myself.

I'm a "hobby" woodworker. My Dad was too, and I've inherited his gene for just wanting to make stuff to the best of my ability. Most people on this forum probably wouldn't rate anything I make, despite my being the best DIY dad of everyone I know.

I just love it, and wish I could do more of it. I get immense satisfaction out of the half-pineappled things I produce, and friends look upon them in total wonder, because they don't know any better!

I’m in a similar boat but I don’t think that point has anything to do with what David is saying. There is no fiscal or functional advantage of what I make over something that could be purchased from a store (John Lewis, OFL, etc.) other than perhaps making items that fit a certain space better than something a standard size. In that sense the hobby is something of a folly but for those like us it can be a source of huge enjoyment and satisfaction becoming therefore important in its own right.

 

[bugbear]

I think the confusion arises because it's possible to do wood working for a living, so there's a temptation to take the practises and priorities of that and apply them to the hobby, especially when "professional" is wrongly taken as a synonym for "good".

Nobody talks about "reasonable" or "sensible" practices in model engineering - it's not hard to work out that spending 4000 hours to make a 1/12 scale model bicycle, with every roller chain link present and correct is just done because you want to, the same reason that someone might give for wanting the underside of their bench to be neat.

BugBear

 

[Phil Pascoe]

A professional is someone who does something for a living - it doesn't necessarily mean they do it well for a living. I must have spent thousands of hours of my working life trying to put right things that were done by "professionals".

 

[D_W]

I think the confusion arises because it's possible to do wood working for a living, so there's a temptation to take the practises and priorities of that and apply them to the hobby, especially when "professional" is wrongly taken as a synonym for "good".

Nobody talks about "reasonable" or "sensible" practices in model engineering - it's not hard to work out that spending 4000 hours to make a 1/12 scale model bicycle, with every roller chain link present and correct is just done because you want to, the same reason that someone might give for wanting the underside of their bench to be neat.

BugBear

In that case, I would say "what does their bench look like?" If they apply the studley chest standard to the bench, I'd say they're a bit nutty, but if they feel the same way about the bench as they do about the bike, then by all means.

In this case, my view of a bench is something that's
* flat, that:
* can be flattened again
* that I can put a mark in and not really mind
* that is stiff enough that it won't move front to back or side to side (in my case, resawing boards with a frame saw puts the most stress on it, but it handles that fine).
* cheap, relatively. I guess you could build a bench for less than the $850 or so that i totaled with two vises - especially if you had access to salvage hardwood lumber
* that has no glue in the joints, and that can be taken apart pretty easily

I could build something really neat on top of it and not be offended that the caps are attached with lags (they are), or that the legs are laminated from 8x stock of three thicknesses (they are). The friend of mine with the neat bench can't really tolerate much of any of that. He prefers to keep his bench neat and clean by covering it and using it only as an assembly table. After he got his shop the way he wanted it, he ran out of steam.

I built my bench in 2 weeks, and my router table (at the time) in a day, so it felt like a warmup.

We're all wired differently.

My mother is a professional, she paints stuff and it sells. Her setup is extremely spartan, and she tends to be very stingy on materials other than decent brushes. I'd guess that she's made about 3/4ths of a million dollars over 30 years. If I tried to sell her on making a neater work space, she'd smile and give me the finger. Literally. Her painting table is something that she pulled out of salvage.

 

[D_W]

I think you guys are taking what I said and turning it in a different direction.

Sorry, didn't mean to, just started blabbering on about my own experience. No offence intended.

None taken, it's just standard procedure for forums. We say something through our own lens, and it's inevitable that someone will read it through another

 

[swagman]

but casting stones at guys making $300 saws while you're collecting a pension is in bad taste.

David; I am not and have never received a government pension. At the time I chose to leave the workforce I was in the privileged position to become a self funded retiree, with the fiscal means to continue that lifestyle.

 

[swagman]

Who in the world would make a comment about not "working down to someone else's standard"

David; another example of you distorting the facts. The following is actually what I wrote;

I just chose not to accept the standard you work too.

 

[ED65]

With all due respect Stewie, you shouldn't be pointing any fingers at someone else for distorting facts.

Now can we stop slinging mud at each other and talk about holdfast holes again?

 

[swagman]

No backing board was required on the underside of the bench.









I would recommend you take the time to make up a simple pilot hole jig, and clamp it down securely to the workbench surface before you start boring your holdfast holes. These bits have a tendency to bite hard. As such I wouldn't recommend a high speed drill for this job task.

 

[DigitalM]

I tried using the pillar drill but it didn't have the torque to get through 6cm of oak, or the bit I was using wasn't the right type.

And so, undaunted (he lied) I proceeded ye olde fashioned way, using a few of the tips from here to bolster my nerves, finally settling on a couple of visual aids + popeye level arm power:

I drilled them all through until I could see the snail then flipped it over and did the other side:

I don't know how well they perform yet, I finished at 5am! Which also explains why I didn't use a router to countersink the rims ... maybe later. Now, sleepy!

Thanks everyone. Hopefully I've got enough clearance for the holdfasts, or some gruelling hacksawing awaits!

 

[swagman]

A professional is someone who does something for a living - it doesn't necessarily mean they do it well for a living. I must have spent thousands of hours of my working life trying to put right things that were done by "professionals".

A professional is a member of a profession or any person who earns their living from a specified professional activity. The term also describes the standards of education and training that prepare members of the profession with the particular knowledge and skills necessary to perform their specific role.

 

[Chris152]

That looks fantastic, DigitalM. Does it attach to another bench for specific purposes? (I'm looking at the clamps holding it in place.)

 

[bugbear]

I tried using the pillar drill but it didn't have the torque to get through 6cm of oak, or the bit I was using wasn't the right type.

And so, undaunted (he lied) I proceeded ye olde fashioned way, using a few of the tips from here to bolster my nerves, finally settling on a couple of visual aids + popeye level arm power:

Ah - that's too small a swing for 3/4" in hardwood. The answer (as always) is more tools - buy a bigger brace!

BugBear

 

[ED65]

Hopefully I've got enough clearance for the holdfasts, or some gruelling hacksawing awaits!

Hopefully not!

Well done on the holes, that's the classic hand-tool approach as given by Hayward and many earlier writers before him.

BTW given it's oak you were drilling through you might want to give the bit a tickle with a needle file to touch it up. Little and often in the key with augers to help maintain their geometry.

Ah - that's too small a swing for 3/4" in hardwood. The answer (as always) is more tools - buy a bigger brace!

Yes! Neander like more tool!

Serious point though, I wouldn't want to do this with less than a 10" sweep given the choice.

 

[AndyT]

I agree about the size of the brace - yours is perhaps 8" swing?

From experience, the small increase in size by going up one step makes a big difference.

I'm trying to quantify the effect of swapping sizes. I can visualise the brace as a lever, pivoting about the centre of the bit. So going from 8" to 10" would only add 25% of [something] though going from 8 to 16 would add 100%, ie double it. Is that mathematically right? Is there a term for that number - advantage? I realise one cutting edge is behind the fulcrum and one beyond it, so assume they cancel each other out and that complication can be ignored.

 

[DigitalM]

That looks fantastic, DigitalM. Does it attach to another bench for specific purposes? (I'm looking at the clamps holding it in place.)

It's the one I use in the kitchen. I've got a small workshop on a family members property about 10 to 15min drive away, but with this wee workbench on my (sturdy!) kitchen table, I'm hoping to be able to finish projects off at home, or even do some hand tool only stuff, which is where my interest is slowly drifting toward.

I had a thread open on "small portable worktop workbench" or similar title, and loads of people chipped in with ideas along with designs from around the web (including a very interesting one by Derek on this forum, that I didn't see until after I'd started this one or I may have made one similar to that!). There was also a great one called the "Milkman's Workbench" which I may make in the future too. It was a bewildering response to be honest, I was amazed at how many options there were.

This one is after a design by Steve Latta that was published in "Fine Woodworking". A guy on facebook told me that he did a class with Steve making one of these, and the original design featured a moxon, but they didn't include that in order to make it a simpler project. I think I'll add that, and also a variation of the bench plane stop used on Derek's worktop workbench. I'm sure you could continue adding stuff, but I'd best leave it there or it will end up looking like Homer's car (they decided that Homer was the "average Joe" and therefore an ideal candidate to design a car for people like him - he just added everything he could think of to it):

 

[DigitalM]

Ah - that's too small a swing for 3/4" in hardwood. The answer (as always) is more tools - buy a bigger brace!

BugBear

You may as well say "Buy a bigger house!" but yeah, I get your point. This isn't the titchy, "narrow throw" one, this is the regular sized brace I see around every car boot sale. Is there a version with a really wide arc throw?! To be honest, I could have done with a two-person version, I was suffering arm pump after about 30 mintues.