Hock plane irons

[andyavast]

I have been tuning my dads old Stanley no.4 smoothing plane recently. I managed to get nice fine shavings and a pleasing finished surface on a particularly knotty piece of cherry using the stock iron and chipbreaker, but had the obvious problems with edge failure. A week or so ago I purchased a Hock high carbon iron, and chipbreaker to complete the tuning process. After flatting the back and cambering/honing, I installed the iron and was instantly gratified by the surface the plane produced! After a short period of planing however, i started to experience those little raised tracks that signify edge failures.
I'm starting to wonder if I should have purchased an A2 iron, because although I don't mind sharpening my tools regularly to keep them performing well, my employer seems to view it as a waste of time.
Has anyone compared these two irons in proper use? How much more abrasion resistant is A2 in real world terms than Hocks High Carbon Steel? Will it get me a payrise? Chance would be a fine thing.
Any input would be appreciated.

Andy.

 

[Joe]

Perhaps you should try one of Ray Iles's D2 irons - I'm no expert but the Tools For Working Wood website describes them as tougher than A2, and I've had good results with mine. Ray recommends using diamond stones to hone them but I find waterstones fine.

Joel

 

[Philly]

Andy
I've found nearly every edge tool I own needed a few sharpenings before the early edge deterioration you describe stopped happening. I believe it is due to the hardening process leaving a thin skin of weaker material on the outside.
After a few more sharpenings you should of removed enough material to get to the "good stuff" - this isn't just a problem with O1 steel, but A2 and others.
Don't give up on your nice Hock iron yet!
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[Joe]

I've found nearly every edge tool I own needed a few sharpenings before the early edge deterioration you describe stopped happening. I believe it is due to the hardening process leaving a thin skin of weaker material on the outside.

Always learning something new on this forum!

 

[andyavast]

Many thanks to you Joe and Philly! I will by no means give up on the iron, the edge I got was so fine and very sharp indeed leaving a stunning finish on the cherry i tested it on. Being relatively new to woodworking I reckon it'll be a case of trying everything, it could be a slippery slope this!
Cheers for the advice on the D2 irons Joe, Ray Iles is a man i admire very much and I can only assume he would have excellent reasons for choosing D2 steel for his replacement irons. I'm sure I'll find myself trying them in the not-too-distant future.
I'll crack on with my Hock and post a wee update after a few more sharpenings.

Andy

 

[shim20]

i got one for my no6. the old blade i had which ran out of steel was a fantastic blade really good. so i got a hock one but did not notice a diffrence really. but nearly just as good steel

 

[Racers]

Hi,

You will have to remove the decaburised layer at the edge of the blade before you get to the good steel. when you heat steel the carbon gets attracted to oxygen it the atmosphere so you have a layer of soft steel that has to be removed. If you have more problems get in tough with Ron, he's a nice chap I met him when I was in America he showed me round his workshop and we had a chat.


Pete

 

[bugbear]

Andy
I've found nearly every edge tool I own needed a few sharpenings before the early edge deterioration you describe stopped happening. I believe it is due to the hardening process leaving a thin skin of weaker material on the outside.
After a few more sharpenings you should of removed enough material to get to the "good stuff" - this isn't just a problem with O1 steel, but A2 and others.
Don't give up on your nice Hock iron yet!
Hope this helps
Philly

Agreed, and I'd add - bevel angle also effects edge strength.

I'd hold onto your money, and persist with the Hock a while yet.

BugBear

 

[Benchwayze]

I'm starting to wonder if I should have purchased an A2 iron, because although I don't mind sharpening my tools regularly to keep them performing well, my employer seems to view it as a waste of time.

Andy.

Andy,

I too think you'll soon get to like your new Hock. But your employer sounds like he isn't too fussy. Difficult position you're in. Keep your integrity, or keep your job. No contest obviously, but it's a shame..

Besta luck
John

 

[matthewwh]

Agreed, and I'd add - bevel angle also effects edge strength.

BugBear

This may be the best solution to both of your problems, a higher secondary bevel will take the steel past the angle where it switches from failing by chipping or bending to that where it eventually dulls through abrasion (a much, much longer process). You can always try again with a shallower angle once you are a sixteenth or so into the blade.

There's nothing quite like a freshly sharpened blade, but at least this will allow you to keep going until your boss takes a break and have a crafty sharpen while he's not looking. - There is something desperately wrong with that situation!

A2 is only a few percent more abrasion resistant than O1 thanks to its 5% chromium content, but has the drawback of suffering from catastrophic failure (crumbling) at low angles. This is why A2 tools are almost invariably ground at 30 degrees or more. I believe that the higher bevel angles contribute much more to the perceived improvement in edge holding than the inherent toughness of the material itself.

Ron's blades are among the finest that money can buy and I'm certain that with a little persistence you will get outstanding performance from it.

 

[andyavast]

Thanks for the words of encouragement fellas, I actually have started sharpening during breaks! I've found it's actually pretty difficult to be an apprentice with standards in the joinery business these days. Handtool use is generally frowned upon due to them being slower than power tools or machinery... I have big ambition though and love working with wood so I won't let it get me down too much!

 

[Benchwayze]

Power to your elbow Andrew..

Seems to me your boss doesn't know how lucky he/she is.

John

 

[tnimble]

Being trained with power tools only at school and just started really getting to know how hand tools are (correctly) used, I have found out that there are a lot of tasks that are faster with a hand tool than with a power tool. 15 years ago I probably would not have believed that If somebody had told me they can be faster and more acurate. I've always placed old hand tools as items put on display by tool collectors, and new hand tools as to be for people that could not affoord power tools. Now I know better.

 

[bugbear]

Being trained with power tools only at school and just started really getting to know how hand tools are (correctly) used, I have found out that there are a lot of tasks that are faster with a hand tool than with a power tool.

It varies. If you're doing lots of little jobs, hand tools, with their lower setup time can win. If there's repetition involved, the power tools win, and if there's sheer brute labour involved, big engines win.

A human is around 400-500 watts, which is quite demoralising.

BugBear

 

[Benchwayze]

That's about right BB,

It is quicker by far to take a rebate plane to a short run of timber, than to expend time taking out a router, sticking in the rebate bit, and then clamping the workpiece.

By the time I've done that, I could have the rebate plane dusted off and back on the shelf, with the job done!

On the other hand, once I glue up a frame that is to recieve a ply-panel, it's much quicker to rebate it afterwards, and clean up the corners, (or round off the corners of the panel! I wouldn't do that... Honestly! )

John

 

[andyavast]

So glad I joined this forum, I was starting to think there was no-one I could share my love of the craft with! Did some work last night with the plane in question, re-honed it and started preparing a board of cherry for a box I plan to make. It cuts better on the second honing! A LOT BETTER!

I know fine shavings are a means to a fine surface (rather than a means to an end) but I was taking full iron width shavings the full length of the board at less than my mitutoyo calipers can measure. After a half hour of work (faces and edges trued and flat) the iron showed no sign of edge failure. BLISS! I can only imagine the edge holding ability will stay this good and my surfaces will continue to sparkle like they did last night!

Regarding my employment, I only have a year and a half to go before my time is out. Then I can pursue my really ambition which is to set up my own small scale furniture workshop. I was planning on taking David Charlesworths tool tuning course this summer which I'm sure will put me on the right track.

Any other advice from you fine folk would be most gladly received!

Andrew

 

[Philly]

Andy
Glad you got it sorted!
Enjoy,
Philly

 

[Benchwayze]

Glad you are happy with your new blade Andy.

It's nice to find a younger person who knows what he wants to do. Wish I had known when I was starting out. I might have had 10 more happy years with wood!

Regards
john

 

[bugbear]

...I was planning on taking David Charlesworths tool tuning course this summer which I'm sure will put me on the right track.

Any other advice from you fine folk would be most gladly received!

I would recommend reading DC's books (library can help here).

Two things could ensue:

1) Either you know enough not to need the course (which costs money), thus saving you money (Sorry, David...)

or

2) You will be very well prepared for the course, and derive more benefit.

All for around 1.50 in library reservation fees. Neato.

BugBear

 

[andyavast]

I'm a step ahead of you Bugbear! I bought all of Mr. Charlesworths books and enjoyed them greatly. I refer to them often and used the knowledge within to tune up my no.4 smoother, which is working so much better now! I think going down to Devon to study with him for a week might really focus me. Any other ideas to get me on my way?

Andy